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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 23, 2009 17:28:30 GMT -5
I so sorry to hear that Kagome. I felt the same way when I euthanized 2 guppy fry with alka selzer yesterday. One had an extremly curved spine and the other had gotten picked on by a bigger one and was missing its tail fin and didn't have a chance of growing it back normally since it got so severely injured at such a young age. I understand what you are going through as I have myself many times. Your fish are in my thougts and prayers.
Renee
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Post by kagome on Jan 23, 2009 23:25:36 GMT -5
Thank you John and Renee for your kind words, they mean a lot to me.
I caught Buffy the clown today and gave her an MB and salt bath. I wanted to give her two today but I just couldn't get it done since my husband, the baby, and I are all still sick. That's one bad thing about having a tank in your bedroom, if someone is sleeping you can't really be hauling in ladders and buckets of water. I got a really good look at her today and I can see for sure that she has milky slime on her. Of course, without a microscope I can't tell for sure if it is fungal or bacterial. I'm leaning towards bacterial. It is very smooth, there are none of the hair like structures or cottony tufts. So I did a water change and added Melafix.
One thing is for sure now, the problems in the two tanks are not the same. There is nothing wrong with the skin on the angelicus loaches in the 10g. I think the problem in the 10g is parasites and the problem in the 38g with clown loaches is bacterial.
When I can, I am so totally infesting in a UV sterilizer so I can spare myself all this grief!
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 24, 2009 11:16:57 GMT -5
I hope thiings get better for you. Personally, for cottony growths, I have found Melafix toi be very effective. If it's not a side effect of waht she already has, I think Buffy may also be suffering from anotehr disease that causes teh fish to produe excess mucus (slime coat). Unfortaunetly I forgot the name. I'm afriad I'm not sure what to use to treat thtas I've never had it in any of my fish. I wish you and your fish the best of luck! I hope you and your family get well soon.
Renee
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Post by kagome on Jan 24, 2009 23:57:43 GMT -5
Thanks Renee. Buffy looked much, much better today when she came out to eat breakfast. The area of milky colored slime seemed much smaller. I'm really hoping that I am on the right track now and will be able to fix her up. Unfortunately she has retired to her favorite cave for most of the day and so I haven't seen her for many hours. If she's not out at breakfast time I will pull out the decor and hint her down. I'm sure that will make the pleco very grumpy but he will just have to forgive me. I added more melafix per the instructions. I was surprised that melafix smells so nice, I guess because it comes from tea trees. I'm used to aquarium chemicals being quite stinky.
The Metronidazole arrived today (thanks again Carl!) and after doing a water change I added it to the 10g. I am really hoping that will fix up that tank as well.
I'm hoping to be able to run numbers and do medicated baths tomorrow. A string of small domestic disasters prevented that being done today; ah, there's nothing like looking down while making lunch and realizing that your toddler has taken off his poopy diaper and is running around the house with poop still on his butt and making a beeline for the couch so he can climb on it. The joys of motherhood abound.
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Post by kagome on Jan 25, 2009 11:49:37 GMT -5
I am so happy! Buffy the clown loach definitely seems to be on the mend. The milky slime has gotten much smaller since yesterday. She came out and ate heartily at breakfast. I can tell she's not feeling 100% better by her color. She is a very bossy fish and she is showing the more subdued colors of the subordinate fish while Spike has taken back on the colors of the dominant fish. I'm sure they will have a color war back and forth once Buffy is feeling better. She is also not loach dancing with Spike right now but hopefully will resume once she's over this yucky stuff. I'm going to do a full week of the melafix to make sure this stuff is all gone. Then I'll do a water change and put the carbon back in the HOB filter. I'm really hopeful that she is going to pull through. Spike has been in rare form and doing rather elaborate loach dancing and displays. I think he is glad to have regained the top spot back for a while and so he wants to show off. No one is scratching anymore either, so I guess they feel better on that front as well.
I did the first dose of Metronidazole, (I'm just gonna call that "Metro" from now on, that name is entirely too hard to remember and spell) in the 10g last night. It says to put it in every two days until symptoms clear. I would think it would be too early to tell yet if it is working. I think I'm going to pilfer another air pump and set up another airstone in there for added aeration. I have a lot of flow in the tank with the over sized filter and the extra powerhead, but I really just don't think you can possibly have too much with loaches. Hopefully this will help with the rapid breathing until the angelicus are over whatever it is that is bothering them. I'm hoping that I am right to think that it is parasites and the Metro will clear it up. I also think that from now on I will treat the tank with Metro when I introduce new loaches since so often they carry internal parasites since they are wild caught.
I still cannot find a butterfly loach, and it's really annoying. Apparently harvesting them in the wild is seasonal but no one seems to know when that season is. I wish I still had friends in Hong Kong, I bet they could find out for me, but they came back home to the US.
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Post by kagome on Jan 26, 2009 10:51:36 GMT -5
Buffy is still looking better but still has a bit of the milky slime. I'm glad I named her after a vampire slayer because she needs to be tough to get over this stuff. The spot where it started is still the worst and so I guess that will take the longest to heal. If she does not seem 100% better at the end of the seven day cycle I will do a water change and start another week of treatment. She is coloring more at Spike, but still not loach dancing. After breakfast she goes back to her hiding place for most of the day and Spike dances solo.
The angelicus in the 10g seem a little better but are still breathing rapidly. I put in the second dose of Metro today. I searched and searched for another air pump in my old stuff in the storage room but so far have not found one. I may have to buy a new one. I could have sworn I had another little one that I used to run an airstone.
I'm going to give my clown pleco his first romaine lettuce today and see how he likes it.
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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 26, 2009 11:32:57 GMT -5
is here hidey place somewhere where bacteria could be lying, like inside a pot or cave? your tanks are beautiful so don't take this the wrong way, just wonder if decor might be holding some evil....
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Post by kagome on Jan 26, 2009 14:50:55 GMT -5
That's a good point. Usually the designated clown loach hiding place is in the corner under the sponge filter, but since she has been sick she has been hiding in the arm of the big Buddha. I don't know if bacteria could be lurking in there. When I do water changes I take out all the decor and rinse it with tap water. The Buddha is very big and the openings are huge, so a lot of water flows through it, same with the pagoda. I'm thinking that if there are bacteria in there that it is also being attacked by the Melafix. Next water change I will rinse the Buddha in the sink with hot water and bleach and then put it in a bucket with lots of dechlorinater. I don't think that was the original source as she was not hiding in there until after she came down with this. But I do think you have a good idea and I should take some extra precautions.
Actually, does anyone know if plain white vinegar would be ok to rinse decor in? I think that would be less trouble and worry than bleach.
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Post by Carl on Jan 26, 2009 15:53:47 GMT -5
Sorry I have been absent from this thread I am glad to read Buffy is doing better and that the angelicus is showing some improvement. I am not totally clear on what you are doing for Buffy, is she getting baths with any meds and Melafix in the tank? I am assuming this is "milky slime " on the fish. Generally this indicates Columnaris, which Melafix does not have antibacterial properties against As for the angelicus, use the Metronidazole in the tank AND the bath (at double strength per water volume). Metronidazole has gram positive antibacterial properties as well. Carl
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Post by kagome on Jan 26, 2009 19:23:35 GMT -5
Buffy is getting medicated baths with salt and MB and then the melafix in the tank. She did not show any improvement with just the baths until I added the melafix to the tank.
I had not been adding the Metro to the baths for the angelicus, but I will from now on. I had just been putting it in the tank.
Should I add Metro to the Buffy's tank as well?
Just for clarity, Buffy and Spike are in the 38g. The angelicus loaches, now named Pullo and Vorenus, are in the 10g (I know, I watch way too much TV).
Also today I put a bigger powerhead in the 10g which the angelucus seem to really enjoy. They like to sit on the gravel and face the flow and then swim up to mid tank where the flow is direct and swim against the current.
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Post by Carl on Jan 26, 2009 20:24:24 GMT -5
Buffy is getting medicated baths with salt and MB and then the melafix in the tank. She did not show any improvement with just the baths until I added the melafix to the tank. Good to know, this also may be due to salt in your aquarium, as the only true bacterial infection that Melafix is effective for is Streptococcus, which is not common Here are a few symptoms: erratic swimming (such as spiraling or spinning); loss of buoyancy control; lethargy; darkening; uni- or bilateral exophthalmia ("pop-eye" in one or both eyes); corneal opacity (whitish eyes); hemorrhage. Eye infections are the most common form of this pathogen in fish. No, you are doing fine without it (I would rather not add more meds when success is being achieved) I think the power head is a good idea, aeration/circulation is almost always a positive. Carl
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Post by kagome on Jan 27, 2009 0:10:09 GMT -5
Carl,
She does not seem to have any of the symptoms that you have listed. The reason I went with Melafix was that the milky slime was listed specifically on the bottle I have as something that Melafix treats. For right now what I'm doing seems to be working so I'm going to plow ahead and hope that all continues to improve.
I added the powehead earlier this afternoon and I have never seen the angelicus so happy. The more they get used to it the more they like it. They are spending a lot of time swimming against the current, way more than before. I don't think I realized before what powerful and fast swimmers they are. They can really zoom up that current if they want to. It's silly that I didn't realize their prowess before, they are river fish after all. Now if I can just find a butterfly loach that tank will be completely set.
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Post by Carl on Jan 27, 2009 11:08:28 GMT -5
Carl, She does not seem to have any of the symptoms that you have listed. The reason I went with Melafix was that the milky slime was listed specifically on the bottle I have as something that Melafix treats. For right now what I'm doing seems to be working so I'm going to plow ahead and hope that all continues to improve. I added the powehead earlier this afternoon and I have never seen the angelicus so happy. The more they get used to it the more they like it. They are spending a lot of time swimming against the current, way more than before. I don't think I realized before what powerful and fast swimmers they are. They can really zoom up that current if they want to. It's silly that I didn't realize their prowess before, they are river fish after all. Now if I can just find a butterfly loach that tank will be completely set. I definitely agree to continue your coarse of action Is there increased salt in the aquarium with the Melafix? This is still likely a form of gram positive bacteria since Melfafix has failed every gram negative bacterial test. The increased circulation for the angelicus is helpful in fighting any infection if this is increasing disolved oxygen. Carl
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Post by kagome on Jan 27, 2009 13:15:43 GMT -5
I added salt to the tank at the rate of one teaspoon per five gallons several days before adding the Melafix.
As for the tank with the angelicus I do think that it must be increasing the oxygen because the entire surface of the water in the tank is now at least slightly agitated. I am a bit worried that the powerhead is a bit too big for a tank that size since it is a Via Aqua 480 and that tank is only a 10g. I think that if I can ever find another one of my others air pumps that I will add an airstone and go back to the smaller powerhead. In that case I would just put the 480 powerhead in the 38g with the clown loaches.
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Post by Carl on Jan 27, 2009 14:54:14 GMT -5
The reason I am asking these questions is to deduce what is affecting your fish, since essentially treating unknown diseases is a guessing game based on odds and experience.
Both odds and experience state that most aquatic diseases are gram negative, therefore usually a gram negative coarse of action has better odds of success. Then couple that with the FACT that Melafix is a gram positive antibacterial (as in humans, many "first" bacterial invaders are gram positive, however it is gram negative infections such as Columnaris that generally take over in fish, this is where Melafix is usually successful as a first aid response)
My point is that you VERY likely have a gram positive infection with Streptococcus iniae, Lactococcus , Enterococcus , and Vagococcus the most common ones affecting fish. So if there should be a relapse where the generally mild Melafix treatment fails, you should consider drugs that are either wide spectrum such as Tetracyclines, Kanamycin, or primarily gram positive such as Neomycin, Metronidazole, or Erythromycin (which is one of the better gram positive treatments, but is also hard on bio filter beds because of its effectiveness for gram positive bacteria which nitrifying bacteria are as well.
Carl
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Post by kagome on Jan 27, 2009 15:54:49 GMT -5
It definitely does seem that the hardest part of treating fish illness is trying to figure out what it is for sure in the first place. I am keeping a close eye on her and trying to do the best I can for her.
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Post by kagome on Jan 30, 2009 0:56:00 GMT -5
Buffy the clown loach seems to be doing so much better. She only has a tiny little bit of discoloration on her back. Frankly, if I didn't know what I was looking for already I don't think I would even see it. The thing that concerns me is that she is hiding all day and not even coming out to eat. She is still very plump and so I don't think that she will starve to death just yet but this is very un-Buffylike behavior. She is usually a little piggy fish who will even push around the much heavier Spike and even bully the pleco when it comes to food. As always I am keeping a close eye on her. Spike is huge and fat because he has been eating extra food so if I only see him out foraging I only put out a half ration and then wait to see if she comes out of hiding to eat.
The angelicus seem to be doing very well. They seem to be putting on more wight recently, which makes me suspect that I was right about the fact that they had internal parasites. Pullo is becoming noticeably larger than Vorenus. I am not sure if this is because they are male and female or simply that Pullo is somehow genetically superior. I am continuing to add Metro to the tank every two days but have stopped MB baths for right now since they seem a bit like overkill.
I was in Petsmart today to see about a job and of course I went into the fish department. I was very happy to see that they had gotten in some more angelicus loaches because they are the only place around that carry them. So as I happily watched them swim around I noticed that one had the very distinct symptoms of wasting disease. I told one of the ladies who works in the fish department and she caught him and said he would be given treatment in the back room of the store. I even walked around and read labels until I found a medicine in the store that contained Metro. I had to stop and ask myself, "Why the heck won't this place hire me?" I apply and apply and never get so much as a phone call. This is the second time I have gone into their fish department and impressed somebody with knowledge about how to take care of the Botia (this one I learned from Carl which I will gladly give him credit for) and other fish. Unfortunately, you can only apply at Petsmart online so they have no idea how to connect me with my application. And plus, I doubt the ladies working in the fish department do the hiring. Anyhoo, not that I can afford to get any angelicus right now, but I would wait anyway to see how the others in the tank look in a few weeks before I bought any. I'd like to get two more for the 10g. I have not made up my mind on whether or not I want to add a shoal of them to the 38g later on or if I want to put just the zebra loaches, hmmm.....
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Post by Carl on Jan 30, 2009 14:32:53 GMT -5
I am glad to read of the continuing progress, I am quite sure you are dealing with a more rare gram positive infection (which also tend to be more virulent than the more common gram negative infections which tend to be more opportunistic).
As to PetsMart, I knew someone who worked in "middle management" there when I had my business in So. CA. and based on all the poop they told me, this does not surprise me. One thought (in part based on what they told me and what I know of similar large retail corporations) is that they prefer to mold persons from scratch, which can have its positives, however you are dealing with a corporation that is based more on squeezing every penny out of every dime (rather than selling the best possible products) which IMO PetsMart is such a company.
When I first moved here to OR, I applied at the pond Dept of a Lowe's which had an opening in this dept., I did not even get a call back. My point is this (and I am sorry to be so no negative), when it comes to aquatics; interest in honesty, quality of products, quality of personality etc. is NOT important to most businesses in this industry except for the few lone independents (& then not many of them either) I will admit that my 30 years in this industry have left me rather jaded, but unfortunately the industry has gotten MUCH worse over the years.
What was depressing for me after leaving this Lowe's application after moving to OR., I also left a resume at an Air Ambulance service at Medford OR airport (for the line crew) and I did not even make it too my truck when a manager who was handed this resume chased me down state they needed pilots and he noted I was a Multi-Engine pilot and asked why I did finish my commercial license and apply for this job. Unfortunately I could not take care of my family (we were at an extremely critical family juncture, where my wife still was not ready and my daughter was in trouble from what we just left CA for), not to mention I opted out of chapter 7 bankruptcy from the issues that caused my move so as to preserve jobs at my old business, this left me in debt with no money to finish this training even I had the time.
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I guess my point that my experience that in aviation they were interested in my resume, but at Lowe's, my VERY good resume meant nothing to them. For me this was a very depressing chain of events, so I understand how this can be upsetting to you kagome
Carl
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Post by barbara on Jan 30, 2009 16:29:11 GMT -5
I have a friend that works at Petsmart. She is disheartened by the treatment of animals that she cares for. The entire store is on a planogram, and nothing can deviate from this. It doesn't matter than the small Oscars die due to aggression, that fish have babies that are eaten, that the reptiles are not upgraded in housing when they grow. She does her best, and does things to help the animals that could get her fired...but she does it anyway, because she researches the animals in her spare time. The fish department at my local Petsmart do have people that care, and ask me questions whenever I visit. They seem eager to learn more, but are limited in what they can do by the rules and regulations.
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Post by kagome on Jan 31, 2009 0:59:39 GMT -5
I went back into Petsmart today because I was filling out an application at Publix next door and had time to kill before my ride came back to pick me up. The same lady was working in the fish department and she was changing out the water for the bettas and she was friendly and chatty so we talked for a while. She said the angelicus loach that I said was sick was in the back and being treated with Metro as I advised. I hope the poor little guy makes it through. One of the other ladies in that department remembered me from when I had been in there before asking about more angelicus and other botias and wanted to make sure I knew that more angelicus had come in. I thanked her and told her because of the sick one I would wait at least several weeks before considering since the one had shown signs of sickness. I chatted with her as well. At least both of these ladies have kept fish for many years and do care very much about the animals in their care. Neither one knows much about the botias specifically but they have kept many of the other fish commonly found in the trade, so that's at least something. The one lady has Africans and the other has a variety of tanks. I still don't hold out much hope of getting a job there but at least the people taking care of the fish are trying their best.
Buffy is doing much better today. She came out and ate breakfast at least, had a minor color war with Spike and then went back to hiding. I don't know if any of you guys have seen loaches have a little active color war or not but it's actually pretty cool. They phase back and forth from their brightest colors to their more muted tones and then back again. Sometimes they bluff and swim at each other but so far I've never seen them actually touch when they're deciding whose boss. This color flashing usually goes on for a few minutes and then somebody gives up and they go loach dancing up one side of the tank with whomever won being extra bright and then they settle down and rest. The dominant one will always be a little brighter while they're hanging out, even resting. Spike seems to currently still be winning the color war since Buffy has been sick. He has also been seriously strutting his stuff with loach dancing lately. He has been flashing his brightest colors which is really nice because of the two fish he has the best colors. The discoloration on Buffy is even smaller today, hopefully it will be gone completely soon.
My wonderful husband did a water change for me today on the 38g while I was out job hunting. So I am starting another seven day course of Melafix in the hopes that all of this crap will finally be gone from the tank.
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