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Post by redright28 on Sept 15, 2017 11:17:18 GMT -5
I've been studying Redox Potential and purchased an affordable ORP to help ensure my aquarium is in top shape. I plan on purchasing the Level 2 sanitizer recommended, but I am looking for some feedback on the following.... Tank Parameters
90 gallon tank (70g of water) 9/12 @ 08:45A - Nitrate - 40 - Ammonia/Nitrite - 0 - GH 304 - KH -115 - ORP - 255mv - Added Gold Trace (recommended dosage) 9/12 @ 08:15P - Added Wonder Shell (1/2 large block .67 ounces 9/14 @5:00P - Nitrate level increased to 80 (I think I may have killed some De-Nitrifying bacteria when I rinsed bio-media in used aquarium water during water change on 9/10. Plan on adding Algone to canister.) - Added Prime (normal dosage) due to high level of Nitrate 80+ 9/15 @ 7:15A GH - 340 (increase associated to Gold Trace and Wonder Shell) ORP - 322??
I have no idea why my Redox reading increased from 255mv - 340mv. I expected this number to reduce since I added Gold Trace, Wonder Shell and Prime. The meter appears to be calibrated properly (using Pinpoint 400mv solution). Should I remove my Chemi Pure Elite filters? I know these increase Redox, but I know that Purigen does too. Should I forgo chemical filtration altogether? Thank you in advance. Greg
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 15, 2017 14:36:54 GMT -5
I've been studying Redox Potential and purchased an affordable ORP to help ensure my aquarium is in top shape. I plan on purchasing the Level 2 sanitizer recommended, but I am looking for some feedback on the following.... Tank Parameters
90 gallon tank (70g of water) 9/12 @ 08:45A - Nitrate - 40 - Ammonia/Nitrite - 0 - GH 304 - KH -115 - ORP - 255mv - Added Gold Trace (recommended dosage) 9/12 @ 08:15P - Added Wonder Shell (1/2 large block .67 ounces 9/14 @5:00P - Nitrate level increased to 80 (I think I may have killed some De-Nitrifying bacteria when I rinsed bio-media in used aquarium water during water change on 9/10. Plan on adding Algone to canister.) - Added Prime (normal dosage) due to high level of Nitrate 80+ 9/15 @ 7:15A GH - 340 (increase associated to Gold Trace and Wonder Shell) ORP - 322??
I have no idea why my Redox reading increased from 255mv - 340mv. I expected this number to reduce since I added Gold Trace, Wonder Shell and Prime. The meter appears to be calibrated properly (using Pinpoint 400mv solution). Should I remove my Chemi Pure Elite filters? I know these increase Redox, but I know that Purigen does too. Should I forgo chemical filtration altogether? Thank you in advance. Greg Interesting test. I would experiment around with removing some of the chemical filtration. I would also recommend a water change. Prime doesn't manage Nitrate. So, the reading could be from this?
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Post by redright28 on Sept 15, 2017 16:22:00 GMT -5
Thanks....doesn't Prime detoxify Nitrate as well as Ammonia and Nitrite?
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 16, 2017 12:16:50 GMT -5
Thanks....doesn't Prime detoxify Nitrate as well as Ammonia and Nitrite? Looks like I misspoke. It does detoxify them... I was thinking remove them. You would still need a bio-filter for that or a water change. It's a instant change and coverts back quickly, so I wonder how that looks on Redox if you took multiple test. It would show constant slight increase after the dose I would think. I can't explain your result than, other than really make sure the ORP meter is calibrated. Myself and others in the group have struggled with keeping them calibrated and it took multiple test to see trends. I would map ORP over time and not worry about one given measure. Gives you any idea of how your maintenance is effecting ORP and just getting you going in the right direction.
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Post by Carl on Sept 18, 2017 8:58:10 GMT -5
Devon made a good point as to calibration. What brand meter are you using? Actually Devon did not mis-speak as per this comment: Prime is a very temporary fix to nitrates and definitely does not manage it long term As per the Chemi Pure chemical filtration products; while I have friends in the industry whom I respect that have had good success with their products, almost in every case I have recorded Redox issues (more so than with Purigen) with their products and for this reason do not recommend. References: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlwww.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/05/aquarium-filter-media.htmlQUOTE from the 2nd article: "The simple answer is to balance the Poly Pad with Redox reducers that that steadily add mineral Cations such as the original AAP Wonder Shell. Or better if you are struggling constant fish health issues and/or Redox/rH issues, simply cease using their often over hyped products (often by popular Youtubers that should know better)"Carl
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Post by redright28 on Sept 18, 2017 12:08:36 GMT -5
Thanks, Carl. Does Prime detox Nitrate for 24-48 hours as it does with Ammonia, or is it less time? I did my weekly water change yesterday, but I took out 30% of the water rather than the typical 20% to allow more time to vacuum the substrate. My Nitrate level is currently down to 20. I will monitor it and try Algone if it continues to become a problem.
I think the next time I open the canister, I will remove the Chemi Pure filters and see how the tank does without chemical filtration. When do you use chemical or carbon filtration for freshwater close-tanks, and is Purigen the product you mostly use?
The ORP meter I had was a cheap Chinese knock-off, so I am in the process of returning it. I think I am going to go with an American Marine Pinpoint model, as it is one of the more affordable units that I found and it has good reviews. Is there a model you would recommend that is under $125?
Thanks, Greg
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 18, 2017 12:34:31 GMT -5
Thanks, Carl. Does Prime detox Nitrate for 24-48 hours as it does with Ammonia, or is it less time? I did my weekly water change yesterday, but I took out 30% of the water rather than the typical 20% to allow more time to vacuum the substrate. My Nitrate level is currently down to 20. I will monitor it and try Algone if it continues to become a problem. I think the next time I open the canister, I will remove the Chemi Pure filters and see how the tank does without chemical filtration. When do you use chemical or carbon filtration for freshwater close-tanks, and is Purigen the product you mostly use? The ORP meter I had was a cheap Chinese knock-off, so I am in the process of returning it. I think I am going to go with an American Marine Pinpoint model, as it is one of the more affordable units that I found and it has good reviews. Is there a model you would recommend that is under $125? Thanks, Greg I personally stopped using chemical filtration, just lots of bio-filtration, mechanical, and uv sterilization. I've used the EcoScene meter. I would be careful of using anything cheap, because even with more expensive meters, you really have to make sure they're calibrated.
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Post by redright28 on Sept 19, 2017 9:13:02 GMT -5
Thanks, Devon. I'm going to try and forgo chemical filtration also. The one aspect that I will miss is the ability to filter toxins and metals, but Algone should help as it removes organic and inorganic dissolved solids.
My UV clarifier (AquaTop 500) does a good job of keeping the water free from algae, but neither the UV or Chemi Pure Elite filter prevents brown algae from accumulating on the artificial plants and ornaments. Every 4-6 weeks I need to soak everything in a 10% bleach solution to remove the algae. I do rinse and soak everything before returning to the tank, and I add Prime to the water to ensure the bleach is not an issue.
Thanks, Greg
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Post by Carl on Sept 19, 2017 12:41:43 GMT -5
Thanks, Carl. Does Prime detox Nitrate for 24-48 hours as it does with Ammonia, or is it less time? I did my weekly water change yesterday, but I took out 30% of the water rather than the typical 20% to allow more time to vacuum the substrate. My Nitrate level is currently down to 20. I will monitor it and try Algone if it continues to become a problem. Honestly I have never made a test as to the timeline of Prime's effect on nitrate, so I cannot say other than I know if there is a high level of ammonia/nitrite production without any removal of nitrates either manually or biological, your nitrates will bounce right back up. Constant use of Prime for such a reason is like using a band-aid for a gaping wound I use chemical filter media "as needed" as per measured water parameters and possible pollutants including medication use (which is in reality a pollutant). Small amounts of carbon along with Purigen IF CALLED FOR is generally what I utilize I would recommend the Hanna ORP/pH Meter which is unfortunately more expensive, but it also allows for accurate measuring of rH (Relative Hydrogen) We are currently out of stock, but could have one drop shipped. Resource: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/HannaTesters.html#orp
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Post by redright28 on Sept 20, 2017 10:46:54 GMT -5
I decided to go with American Marine's PINPOINT Redox probe. Besides being well priced, this probe received positive reviews and is geared towards aquarium use and 24/7 monitoring. The probe is easily positioned with the tank using a suction cup. americanmarineusa.com/collections/pinpoint-monitors/products/pinpoint-orp-monitorUnfortunately, I was dejected with my initial results. The instructions recommend 24-36 hours before taking readings; however, the meter leveled off at about 318mv 30 minutes after insertion! What confuses me even more, is that it increased to 363mv 60 minutes after dosing my tank with Seachem's Gold Trace!? I was expecting a decrease in Redox -- not an increase. I still need to remove my Chemi Pure filters, so I will be interested in seeing how that impacts Redox, but I am VERY concerned and confused as to why my Redox level is so high. The tank has no Ammonia, Nitrites, or Chlorine. Nitrates were around 20 after Sunday water change, but I expect they will be back up to 60-80 in a few days. I will then add Algone and remove the Chemi Pure filters. GH is at 322, KH140, and pH 7.6 (four goldfish) No organic material in the tank or filter. Diet: (43% Herbivore, 33% Spirulina 20, 14% NLS Goldfish, Aqueon Shrimp 10% three 1-2 minute feedings daily) Airstone placed in the middle of tank with good aeration. I don't know why the Redox level is so high.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 20, 2017 11:36:16 GMT -5
I would start with removing the chemi pure and retest with the same meter to know the cause (Think you returned it though) Or, if the probe is not staying calibrated.
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Post by Carl on Sept 20, 2017 11:50:31 GMT -5
A good way to test your meter is some tap water.
Test it right out of the tap, then add Prime and re-test. Take another sample and add some Wonder Shell shavings and re-test again.
In both cases you should see movement down.
Carl
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Post by redright28 on Sept 20, 2017 20:10:17 GMT -5
Great suggestion, thank you. It appears the ORP meter is doing its job...
Tested treated RO Water (GH-0, KH-140, pH 7.0) 378mv (30 mins)
Tested house water 624mv (30 mins)
Distilled Water 447 mv (30 mins)
How can I expect to achieve a -200 to 150mv reading when my source water levels are so high?
House Water Test (200ml) Redox 611mv (30 mins)
Added 5 drops of Prime Redox 190 (15 mins)
Added 5 drops of Gold Trace Redox 173 (10 mins)
Added Wonder Shell shavings Redox 159 (10 mins)
Added 5 drops of StressGuard Redox 157 (10 mins)
Added 5 drops of Replenish Redox 146 (10 mins)
Tank Water Test (200 ml)
Redox - 275mv (almost 100mv lower than earlier today)
Added 5 drops of Prime Redox 119mv (10 mins)
Added 5 drops of Gold Trace Redox 117mv (10 mins)
Added Wonder Shell shavings Redox 109mv (10 mins)
Added 5 drops of Replenish Redox 103mv (10 mins)
I plan on removing my Chemi Pure filters tomorrow 1) If I store them in a sealed zip lock bag can I reuse them? 2) Can I clean them using house water before storing them? Any beneficial bacteria will die in storage.
Also will add Algone packet to top canister tray (where my chemi filters are currently located).
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Post by Carl on Sept 21, 2017 8:49:30 GMT -5
Great tests!
Answers: (1) Yes, but I would dry it first
(2) Yes again. You do not need to try & save any bacteria
Carl
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Post by redright28 on Sept 25, 2017 11:48:35 GMT -5
Here is an update...
Besides adding a UVC sterilizer, what can I do to reduce my Redox down to 125mv -- assuming -200 to +125 mv is in fact the acceptable redox level for a freshwater aquarium?
Everything that I have read states my current level is too oxidizing for healthy freshwater fish and not good for their biochemical makeup.
Is 125mv attainable when using house water with a 600-620mv reading?
Tank Water Readings:
9/21 @ 14:00 Redox - 300 TDS - 647 EC - 1380 Temp - 75.5
- removed Chemi Pure filters (2) and added Algone packet to top canister trey.
9/22 @ 08:00 Redox - 302 TDS - 632 EC -1336 Temp 74.4
GH = 322 KH -90 pH - 7.7
Added 10g Seachem Alkaline buffer.
9/23 08:30 Redox - 284
9/23 @ 15:30 Nitrates - 30/40
Added Seachem Gold Trace
9/25 @ 9:00 Redox - 286 Nitrates - 20
Algone has reduced by Nitrate level to 20 which is better than a typical reading after a 20% water change. I will do a water change on Wednesday (10 days after last water change) to see how dirty the substrate is. Going forward, I'd like to limit water changes to every 14 days, as long as Nitrates do not exceed 50.
I prepared several bottles of RO water with minerals and carbonate for Wednesday's change. Here is one bottle's reading...
Redox - 322 TDS - 350 EC - 702
I am thinking the RO water is a better choice than house water (redox over 600mv) as the Redox level is much lower. Your thoughts?
Thank you, Greg
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 25, 2017 13:12:41 GMT -5
I don't believe there's a certain Redox value you need to shoot for, but rather a downshift and not an upshift. Testing my redox, I end up sitting at low 200s higher 100s. The tap comes mid 500s... So you're close. I bet RO would help. I'm wondering if the Algone is keeping it a little up. The idea is just to make sure you have an increasing Redox...
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Post by redright28 on Sept 25, 2017 13:53:21 GMT -5
Thanks, Devon. You said to make sure I have an increasing redox, why is that? Is an increasing Redox considered normal due to accumulating mulm?
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Post by Carl on Sept 26, 2017 9:46:01 GMT -5
I think better is you need a balanced Redox which mean more oxidizers during times of increased bio load and more reduction otherwise. So a normal aquarium is going to see fluctuations. The newer rH number is a better number to shoot for over all Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html#rhCarl
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Post by redright28 on Sept 26, 2017 10:47:09 GMT -5
Thanks, Carl. That makes sense. I'd like to get my baseline Redox under 150mv if possible, adding a UVC sanitizer and using RO water should help but may not be enough.
I did do an RH calculation, and it looks like I am around 31 which is still high.
At least my water parameters are within a good range for goldfish now, and it looks like they are all doing well.
I can' thank you enough for your unbiased information and support. I learned a lot from reading (and in some cases re-reading) your reports/articles.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 26, 2017 11:50:37 GMT -5
Thanks, Devon. You said to make sure I have an increasing redox, why is that? Is an increasing Redox considered normal due to accumulating mulm? I said that wrong. More on the decreasing side, but oxidization is still important.
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