Bulging red bump side of fish - like blood blister

[nativekeeper]

I've done my best trying to figure out what this might be & how or if to treat it. It doesn't seem to be adversely effecting the fish right now. He's just as active as ever, eats good, doesn't act 'sick'.

Not sure if you can tell from the photo's but it's a bump, not like a wound, skin is intact. The scales are protruding in that area because of how it's bulging. Rest of scales are fine. If the fish was human I'd say it resembles a blood blister. Pretty sure it's not getting any bigger, nor any smaller. It seemed it just showed up one day that way. He's had it about a month now.

Is this just internal hemorrhage or septicemia? Is it a symptom of something? Caused by what? Treat or not? If treat, how?

Fish type: Ambloplites rupestris .. known as Rock Bass or Red Eye. Member of the Sunfish family along with Bluegills, other bass. Measures about 6"-7" long. Cold water fish. No heater in tank. Had him for maybe about 6 yrs now so he's maybe 7-8 yrs old.

Tank: 75 gal .. he's the only fish in the tank. Found out hard way he doesn't play nice with other fish so had to move him from my bluegill tank. But he does like to play chasing my finger along the tank. No changes have been made to the tank for more than 1 yr, other than water change schedule from biweekly to weekly. That was done several months ago. Temp will very with season. During summer never gets above 75 degrees, winter lowest is about 55 degrees.

Water Params = Zero ammonia & zero nitrites. Nitrates usually hit 15ppm max day before water change which I do about 30-50% water change every week, as noted above this was changed from biweekly couple months ago.

Additional info: Tank is planted with 2 species of live plants. Dose ferts 1 time/week for low light including adding GH booster. GH runs about 6-7dGH ... KH 4-5dKH ... PH 7.4-7.6 (hard to tell on the chart exactly). Also, add Glut (generic Excel) daily. Has one huge hollowed out tree root been in tank for more than 1 yr. And a log cave I made from driftwood pieces. Oh that is 1 thing I did change couple months ago, I redid his cave & added some "logs" to make it bigger & more stable.

I'm sure that's more info than needed lol .. but wanted to be thorough.









EDIT: Well wouldn't you know as I reviewing the photo's I just I realized he had been building his mating nest by the large hollowed out tree root, which appeared to have been moved a bit. Yeah they're pretty strong. He also started another one by his log cave which he kept bumping into it knocking it over & why I had to stabilize it. This type fish mostly uses their mouth like a bulldozer to build their nest using their tail to propel them. Now wondering if he swallowed a stone doing this which nicked blood vessel or possibly broke a blood vessel exerting himself. Especially if he was trying to move that big, heavy tree root. If that's the case, is there anything to needs to be done about it since it's been that way for a little while? Could he still be bleeding internally? If so, is there anything that can be done about that? Could this even be the cause? Or is it something else that does need to be treated? 

[Carl]

Welcome to Everything Aquatic!

Looking at your Rock Bass, this is most likely some sort of hemorrhaging and possible infection under the epidermis.
Based on the location, this is not from a nicked blood vessel from swallowing a stone. This said, what the cause is I cannot say for sure as your paramters and tank health all seem to check out.

Did anything fall on this fish?


I would start with a medicated fish bath using sodium chloride, methylene blue, kanamycin & furan 2

Reference:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html

An in tank Medicated Wonder Shell might be helpful, although some plant die back might occur

Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html

Carl

[nativekeeper]

Thanks for the welcome & info. Hope all is well with you. I saw your note about taking time off. Glad to see you're back.

It's entirely possible when he knocked his log cave over it fell on him but the way it landed seems improbable. It appeared it would have fallen away from him knowing the direction he would have been pushing it from where he was building his nest. It wasn't that heavy (apparently) which is why he was able to knock it over but suppose the edge of a log could have hit him wrong. I've since added some weight to the bottom & have flat rock on top. He's pretty much done nest building now for this season.

Just today I noticed the bulge suddenly appeared to grow below the red area, so now it's twice a long. It's not red at all though. After so long this is the first change I've seen. I can try to get a new pic if needed.

I have those meds on hand but catching him is going to be hard. He's pretty fast & skittish especially since he's not "acting" or feeling sick. But I'll try it using the 2 net method.

What about a medicated food in addition to bath. Can Furan2 be used in food? I've read so much I can't recall now.

I'll need to purchase medicated wonder shell(s) though. I notice directions say to use for 2-3 weeks, no longer than 3 weeks max. So appears I'll need to buy a large & medium shell for 75 gal tank. Will those last 2-3 weeks or will I need additional shells to treat for full 3 weeks? Not sure how long they last & says to replace when 2/3 used up. I want to make sure I purchase enough.

And just to verify, no more than 10% water changes during that 3 weeks period?

Thanks for all your help. Now that the bulge suddenly grew, it has me more worried.

[Carl]

Sept 6, 2017 0:28:30 GMT -5 nativekeeper said:

What about a medicated food in addition to bath. Can Furan2 be used in food?

Medicated food might be helpfull too, but Furan 2 does not work in medicated food mixes.
Generally medicated foods are best for digestive issue, but they can still work for problems such as this.

Kanamycin & Neomycin OR Triple sulfa are good choice for a medicated food slurry.

Further Reading:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html#food_delivery

I'll need to purchase medicated wonder shell(s) though. I notice directions say to use for 2-3 weeks, no longer than 3 weeks max. So appears I'll need to buy a large & medium shell for 75 gal tank. Will those last 2-3 weeks or will I need additional shells to treat for full 3 weeks? Not sure how long they last & says to replace when 2/3 used up. I want to make sure I purchase enough.

Generally just one regimen of Medicated Wonder Shells is all that is needed per disease treatment/prevention regimen. So if it lasts just two weeks (or even less), this is OK

And just to verify, no more than 10% water changes during that 3 weeks period?

If a Medicated Wonder Shell is used, no water changes are best, just restrict feeding to lower nitrate production and other reasons for water changes

Further Reading:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_cleaning.html#water_changes

Thanks for all your help. Now that the bulge suddenly grew, it has me more worried.

You're welcome.
This growth is a concern and I wish I could be more specific as to the cause (parasites often cause such under skin bulges, however your history does not lend itself to introduction of such a parasite)

Carl

[nativekeeper]

Thanks for your quick replies and I hate to take up more of your time but I thought of one more thing since today is worm feeding day. lol

Once per week & sometimes as treat after water changes, I was feeding him & the 2 blue gills, red "wriggler" worms (pieces) that I've been raising for about 2yrs now. However, recently he and one of the bluegills got to where they didn't want to eat them. Lil' Red = the Rock Bass used to go crazy over them. I could hold a wiggler outside the glass in front of him & he'd get all excited.

Suddenly the worms had no appeal & then he & 1 of the blue gills started spitting them back out so I knew something wasn't right. Maybe the food I was feeding the worms didn't taste good anymore or they knew something wasn't "right" with the worms. It seems animals have better sense when food isn't "good" & shouldn't be eaten. Maybe I'm feeding worms too much watermelon? I don't know.

Then I read on your site about how worms or maybe just earthworms (?) can be bad because of parasites in the soil ... I think, well I can't recall exact reason, too much reading lol, but wondered if that may have been the cause of the bump. It may have popped up about same time as he started refusing to eat the worms. Though he didn't refuse other food.

I've quit feeding any of them the worms especially after reading that. Thought I'd add this in case it might be relevant or helpful.

Again, thanks for all your help and especially all the hard work you've put into your very helpful articles. I've read & used them many times. I know your article on baths probably saved life of one of my bluegills last year. I couldn't believe the change in him after just one bath since he appeared so close to death. He was in such bad shape I had no trouble netting him as he didn't have the energy to even flee from the net ... that's how bad he was. Never figured out what was wrong & he still has some problems but that's another story for another time.

I try to repay you by ordering from your site but the amount I've spent doesn't seem enough for what I've learned from you. Wish I could do more but finances are tight so I can't buy everything I want at once but do what I can to support you.

[Carl]

Sept 6, 2017 15:47:27 GMT -5 nativekeeper said:

Once per week & sometimes as treat after water changes, I was feeding him & the 2 blue gills, red "wriggler" worms (pieces) that I've been raising for about 2yrs now. However, recently he and one of the bluegills got to where they didn't want to eat them. Lil' Red = the Rock Bass used to go crazy over them. I could hold a wiggler outside the glass in front of him & he'd get all excited.

Suddenly the worms had no appeal & then he & 1 of the blue gills started spitting them back out so I knew something wasn't right. Maybe the food I was feeding the worms didn't taste good anymore or they knew something wasn't "right" with the worms. It seems animals have better sense when food isn't "good" & shouldn't be eaten. Maybe I'm feeding worms too much watermelon? I don't know.

I have seen this happen before myslef on many occasions, but I have no conclusive reason as to why.
Most often this is due to weakness of the fish, but the reasons can be quite varied (with old age and infestations/infections being the main causes) This of course is a vague answer that does not offer much help other than I have my doubts the worms themselves are the issue in particular if you raised them

Then I read on your site about how worms or maybe just earthworms (?) can be bad because of parasites in the soil ... I think, well I can't recall exact reason, too much reading lol, but wondered if that may have been the cause of the bump. It may have popped up about same time as he started refusing to eat the worms. Though he didn't refuse other food.

I've quit feeding any of them the worms especially after reading that. Thought I'd add this in case it might be relevant or helpful.

It is tubiflex worms that are generally the problem, although earthworms can be an issue.
However if you are raising of the worms in a controlled environment, the likelyhood of these being a problem is low

Here is one disease caused by tubiflex worms:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2016/03/whirling-disease-myxobolus-cerebralis.html

Again, thanks for all your help and especially all the hard work you've put into your very helpful articles. I've read & used them many times. I know your article on baths probably saved life of one of my bluegills last year. I couldn't believe the change in him after just one bath since he appeared so close to death. He was in such bad shape I had no trouble netting him as he didn't have the energy to even flee from the net ... that's how bad he was. Never figured out what was wrong & he still has some problems but that's another story for another time.

I try to repay you by ordering from your site but the amount I've spent doesn't seem enough for what I've learned from you. Wish I could do more but finances are tight so I can't buy everything I want at once but do what I can to support you.

You're welcome!

Your appreciation is also payment.
Based on my stat software 99% take my help and go elsewhere. As well often in other formats such as Facebook, persons will often argue and only take help halfway then take more time because advice was not followed. Worse I get treated rudely in many forums

Carl

[nativekeeper]

Good to know about the home grown red worms. Soon I'll be back to feeding the worms real veggies like broccoli, cucumbers, squash, etc which would be better for the fish anyway. lol Then I'll decide what to do with them at that point.

The worms aren't really needed since the other treat I give me fish is freeze dried krill. Yeah I spoil my fish. Can't feed it too often since fish get addicted to it like an addict does to drugs. lol

I've read about the issues with tubiflex worms so never used them.

That 99% stat is pathetic. It's shameful people don't reward or repay you for your hard work trying to help people using facts, your knowledge, vast experience & time you spend helping people on this forum. I've seen on other forums how people recommend or say some of the strangest things or give questionable advice. And then to be rude to you is just reprehensible. So please know some of us really do appreciate what you do & how much you help us, even if we don't always tell you. I'm guilty of not saying anything before posting this thread & for that I'm sorry since it's take so little time/effort to simply say thanks. Corrected that now.  

[devonjohnsgard]

Krill has been proven to trigger a response in fish. It is like a drug to them. They will go on a feeding frenzy even past when the food is all eaten. One of the reasons it's in many foods.

[nativekeeper]

For me it seems to work good for feeding meds since it'll soak up a small amount of medicated liquid. I still use Garlic Guard as some med scents are strong, at least to my nose. If right amount of liquid is used I can also use pellets in the mix without them getting mushy. Helps avoid getting fish addicted to the krill. It's hard, on me lol, to wean fish off krill since I'm a softy & hate thinking I'm starving my fish.

[nativekeeper]

Well nothing seems to have helped so far. Did the bath as suggested, was I supposed to give more than 1 bath? Added the Medicated Wonder Shells for 2 weeks. Fed Kanamycin + Neomycin for 1 week, yet the "bump", (swelling) actually seems to be expanding though the redness doesn't appear to be growing. I haven't been able to get new photo to show it.

Other than the "bump" he doesn't seem to be "sick". Still eating, energetic & acting like normal.

Carl , do you have any other suggestions?

[Carl]

This may be just a blood blister (I have seen these in fish), and really all the mediation will do is stop or slow any secondary infection that might come from this.

Since this fish is otherwise doing well, my suggestion is to simply keep water parameters as best possible, optimize diet and watch for any negative changes.
At this point I would only use the AAP regular Wonder Shells and AAP/Seachem StressGuard.

Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#stressguard

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

The baths are meant to be performed more than once. Like 7-10 days in a row, 1 or 2 times a day. But I agree with what Carl said.

[nativekeeper]

Ok thanks for the quick reply. It sort of looked like blood blister I get sometimes but wasn't sure. When it started expanding is when I really got worried. I'll keep eye on him, especially for any secondary problems that might crop up. I'll continue with my weekly water changes & make sure water params stay good.

I didn't realize in this case I was supposed to do daily baths or for that long .. oops. I could try giving additional baths if that might help though worried that might stress him too much & cause more problems than it would help.

Thanks again for all the help.

[Carl]

Oct 1, 2017 3:29:39 GMT -5 nativekeeper said:

I didn't realize in this case I was supposed to do daily baths or for that long .. oops. I could try giving additional baths if that might help though worried that might stress him too much & cause more problems than it would help.

I missed this, good catch Devon.

Baths are good in that Methylene Blue often absorbs where other medications do not, thus getting to where it is needed.

As for stress caused by these baths, no denying that added stress is the down side of medicated baths, so if this blood blister (or whatever it is) getss worse, I would definitely continue the baths. Otherwise you might give the StressGuard and regular WS a try

Carl

[nativekeeper]

Ok thanks I'll keep close eye on him & be prepared to give additional baths.