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Post by cindil on Feb 1, 2017 9:26:36 GMT -5
Hi, first post here  My question is : Once columnaris is cured, will low levels of salt go towards helping prevent a columnaris outbreak? I am thinking .05% or about 1 tbsp per 5g. I have had two outbreaks since last April. I constantly read pros and cons about have continual small amounts of salt and would like to know if this is 1) ok for my girls and 2) if it really would help. I have read through Carl's articles repeatedly and though salt is mentioned I could use some help on this and don't want to see this nasty disease again. I have a 33g long fairly heavily planted aquarium with a betta sorority and also a small shoal of cories and rummy nose tetras. I run two 200gph hob (aqueon) filters with diy filter floss and matrix. I use re-mineralized RO water and use Seachem Replenish, alkalkine buffer and fresh trace (and prime when needed). My stats are: amm-0, nitrites-0 and nitrates always low, under 5 I'd say. PH-7.8 GH-150 ish KH-120 Temp-78-79 I change out 40% water weekly replacing with heated and aerated, re-mineralized RO water. Last April I had a fast moving strain of columnaris go through my tank and I lost half my stock before I figured out what it was. I treated with nitrofurazone and kanaplex, followed up by Maracyn 2. This was before my sorority and with mostly livebearers and my rummy nose tetras and cories. I started my sorority around November 1st and have continued to add to it. About a month ago, maybe 6 weeks ago, the deaths started again but only with my girls. Symptoms always the same: lethargy, coming up to the top very frequently like they can't get enough air, belly turns pale, death within 12 hours. Took me a bit to figure out it was columnaris again. I was originally trying daily or twice daily baths of Hikari betta revive (malachite green, meth blue and neomycin) which didn't help. I also tried oxytetracycline flakes which in hind sight I know wouldn't help columnaris. I am in the second round of both kanaplex and nitrofurazone. Most likely it came in with one of my new girls. I haven't had any more deaths now in about a week and have definitely learned my lesson about not quarantining the newbies. I added the amount of salt I stated above and want to know if this is a good step? Edit: also just wanted to add I purchase juvenile girls as I find they integrate nicely into the sorority. From my original girls last November I only have two adults remaining and the rest of the girls (9) are juveniles. All get along well, no nipped fins, all come up front and feed together rubbing together (which is probably why its passed so rapidly). I feed Omega One mini pellets in the AM and Hikari Frozen Blood worms at night. I have found this combination prevents constipation and bloating. |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 1, 2017 14:15:36 GMT -5
Welcome welcome welcome!!!!!
I believe sodium Chloride should be used for treatment reasons only. Though considering the fish, some do need some salt. I wouldn't think it's best for a betta.
Better is making sure their getting those replenishing minerals (electrolytes), which your doing, but I'm not sure if you were doing it before the issue.
Columaris is stress induced, so consider things like bulling, flow, temp, and food. These are much bigger aspects for prevention. High quality food helps keep immunity boosted (along with the electrolytes). I give Omega about 5-6/10. Consider AAP Custom Food. Then worms as treats.
Other than that, it sounds like your doing really good for your sorority!
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Post by bettarescue on Feb 1, 2017 14:25:00 GMT -5
Oh my love, you came!!! Hey Cindi, welcome to the forum (never thought I would be saying that to you!) and nice to see you! I recognized the sorority right away, looked up and alas it's you! Sorry, had to get that out! I have missed you- we are lucky to have you here, after all this is where brilliant minds converge  Edit: the new columnaris outbreak happened after the strep you cured right? |
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Post by cindil on Feb 1, 2017 16:22:40 GMT -5
Hey you didn't keep your same name lol. I'm pretty boring that way No not right after the strep. Its my own fault for not putting each girl in a quarantine tank first but that would take months. Learned my lesson there though. Thats how the strep came in. I should take my own advice! I even lost beautiful Queenie if you remember her  I didn't bother posting about it on FL because I know how to treat it and was so annoyed with myself for introducing it in the first place. I swear I see columnaris outbreaks every other thread so not sure if the fish farms are having major issues with this disease themselves.... Just saw Carl mentioning salt as a preventative so thought I'd ask. Thanks for the welcome devonjohnsgard Yes I have always re-mineralized my RO water. |
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Post by bettarescue on Feb 1, 2017 17:07:26 GMT -5
Oh I am so sorry to hear that, she was a beautiful CT and was one of the older girls right? OH NO, is Sugar still with us? Had to mention, I love your avatar picture- Maurice is it? Is getting more stunning by the day. I loved the "breakfast with the shrimp" pictures I sew last, the bright yellow shrimp contrast with his cornflower blue so well!
I ageee, columnaris seems to be rampid right now, and bettas with tumors and cysts- I have never seen so many cases as in the past 4 months! I wonder if the winter has something to do with it, with temps fluctuations more inside and outside of the tank?
I smiled when I read your question. I have been rummaging through every article I can find trying to decide this for myself but was too embarassed to just ask.
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Post by Carl on Feb 1, 2017 17:55:42 GMT -5
WELCOME to EA!  The open question seems to be to salt or not to salt Honestly, this is not a direct yes/no answer I would personally recommend weaning the Bettas off the salt and use it when you suspect something, add new fish, or some trauma has happened I have an article about salt (sodium chloride) use in freshwater, but in reading it you will likely find that it may not answer your question as I leave this as an open answer for each fish keeper to decide what is best for their situation. www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.htmlDefinitely when it comes to Columnairs, salt is a proven in University level research treatment, but this same research also shows that as salt is increased, this also becomes a problem Carl |
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Post by cindil on Feb 2, 2017 0:18:48 GMT -5
Thanks so much for the response I'll read the article and I guess thats the question how much salt is enough without harming the inhabitants. Is the .05% even enough to do any good? I'll read that and decide and remove it Friday with my water change if I need to. Just wanted to say I have really appreciated the extensive knowledge your articles and blogs give on so many topics, I'd be lost without them. Really the most comprehensive and detailed information out there so thank-you |
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Post by cindil on Feb 2, 2017 0:25:44 GMT -5
Oh I am so sorry to hear that, she was a beautiful CT and was one of the older girls right? OH NO, is Sugar still with us? Had to mention, I love your avatar picture- Maurice is it? Is getting more stunning by the day. I loved the "breakfast with the shrimp" pictures I sew last, the bright yellow shrimp contrast with his cornflower blue so well! I ageee, columnaris seems to be rampid right now, and bettas with tumors and cysts- I have never seen so many cases as in the past 4 months! I wonder if the winter has something to do with it, with temps fluctuations more inside and outside of the tank? I smiled when I read your question. I have been rummaging through every article I can find trying to decide this for myself but was too embarassed to just ask. She wasn't one of my older girls but definitely my most beautiful CT. No, lost Sugar too. I only have two adults left from my original stock in November. The rest are all new over the last few weeks. Really happy the deaths have stopped, ugh. Thats Marcello in the avatar, I'm quite charmed by him. I just never want to deal with columnaris again, it is the only disease (other than the strep ) that I have ever had in my tank, never had ich or anything like that. My pond has been disease free which is interesting. Have not had one single problem out there (since I set it up last spring). It is just plain old well water and at the moment, here is Madison, WI a chilly 38 degrees in the water. I check on them every once in awhile when the snow allows me to and they're all alive, hanging out in there. |
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Post by Carl on Feb 2, 2017 9:45:42 GMT -5
Is the .05% even enough to do any good? According to the Auburn University I cite in the columnaris article, the percentage to be effective is .1 (or 1000 mg/liter). However this is for the salt only treatment. While I have not tested how much salt is required to benefit a treatment using Nitrofurazone/Kanamycin, my observations are this would be a benefit. But by itself after treatment, it likely would not make a difference (which the study backs up)  References: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.htmlwww.int-res.com/articles/dao/21/d021p171.pdfCarl |
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Post by cindil on Feb 2, 2017 11:15:25 GMT -5
Hmm, interesting, this is a great chart, thanks. In looking at this as an only salt treatment, the .3% seems to be a great treatment (which is good to know) if someone doesn't have access to common antibiotics (like in the UK) and seems to keep the post treatment deaths fairly low. I do find myself wondering though, lets say you treat and eradicate the disease with the kana/furanol treatment, would a continual small salt amount post (successful) treatment help keep it at bay or developing into a full blown disease in the future?
I wonder if 20 years ago when most aquarium keepers kept salt in their aquariums if they had issues with this terribly deadly disease and if it was due to that or if the disease itself was not seen as much back then. I'll never know the answer to that I guess but I wonder what the incidence was back then, did you see it as often?
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Post by bettarescue on Feb 2, 2017 20:13:53 GMT -5
cindil you have the sunsun submersible 13w in your pond right? I bet that has something to do with it @carl I have read most all of your articles and my question is: do you keep each draft of the updated articles as you progress? cindil asked about observations you made early on in the hobby and it made me wonder if you keep any record of what was, up to what is? So you can look back at previous ideas and conclusions drawn about each subject? I would be intensely interested to watch the development of say, water chemistry or salt use in aquariums from the 80's to today.
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Post by cindil on Feb 3, 2017 0:20:15 GMT -5
Yeah I did use the sunsun 13w in the spring/summer/fall and finally had to remove it for winter but as soon as it warms up in the spring I'll be putting it back in.
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Post by Carl on Feb 3, 2017 17:13:23 GMT -5
@carl I have read most all of your articles and my question is: do you keep each draft of the updated articles as you progress? cindil asked about observations you made early on in the hobby and it made me wonder if you keep any record of what was, up to what is? So you can look back at previous ideas and conclusions drawn about each subject? I would be intensely interested to watch the development of say, water chemistry or salt use in aquariums from the 80's to today. No, generally not. Each article is updated regularly for a multitude of reasons (sometimes just for better readability, others for more up to date information) Many articles will point out that certain concept has since been replaced. I also do note the history in many subjects within the articles. I even recently wrote an article just about UV Sterilizer history www.uvsterilizerreview.com/2015/12/aquarium-pond-uv-sterilizer-history.htmlCarl |
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Post by bettarescue on Feb 4, 2017 2:31:35 GMT -5
cindil thank you for putting that question out there, I have been trying to find a way to word it but, just plain asking about columnaris prevention didn't cover the 'salt as a post cure' maintenance option. I wonder if there is anything that can genuinely keep columnaris away, I bet the answers most likely no... it's never that easy @carl Thank you, I have not read that article yet, something new to read!
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Post by Carl on Feb 4, 2017 11:57:15 GMT -5
I wonder if there is anything that can genuinely keep columnaris away, I bet the answers most likely no... it's never that easy I agree, but it can be limited considerably When EVERY point in my "Aquarium Disease Prevention" article is followed, I found Columnaris was very uncommon. www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.htmlThe wild card that always remains is genetics and past exposure to high ammonia (which can leave permanent injury that makes a fish more susceptible in the future this too is addressed in section 8 of the Disease Prevention article. www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html#old_ageCarl |
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Post by childofiam on Feb 15, 2017 8:38:15 GMT -5
I wonder if there is anything that can genuinely keep columnaris away, I bet the answers most likely no... it's never that easy I agree, but it can be limited considerably When EVERY point in my "Aquarium Disease Prevention" article is followed, I found Columnaris was very uncommon. www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.htmlThe wild card that always remains is genetics and past exposure to high ammonia (which can leave permanent injury that makes a fish more susceptible in the future this too is addressed in section 8 of the Disease Prevention article. www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html#old_ageCarl I followed this advise and have not had any problems sense. Prevention through good husbandry habits is the way to go. I had never thought about doing regular hydrogen peroxide soaks on my drift wood and now I do it every month because I found the buildup of biomass in the driftwood was causing my problems. Richard PS... Welcome to Everything Aquatic! |
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Post by Carl on Feb 15, 2017 13:28:45 GMT -5
I had never thought about doing regular hydrogen peroxide soaks on my drift wood and now I do it every month because I found the buildup of biomass in the driftwood was causing my problems. Richard PS... Welcome to Everything Aquatic! Excellent educational point! What parameters did you improve by doing this? Carl |
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Post by childofiam on Feb 15, 2017 19:08:57 GMT -5
I had never thought about doing regular hydrogen peroxide soaks on my drift wood and now I do it every month because I found the buildup of biomass in the driftwood was causing my problems. Richard PS... Welcome to Everything Aquatic! Excellent educational point! What parameters did you improve by doing this? Carl All algae problems disappeared... TDS's went way down, over a 100 points. |
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