HELP- Irregular movements

[kevin]

My Tiliapia Buttercoffery had a fin rot issue back in November which I treated with a couple fungal treatments exactly as instructed. Did water changes, replaced with less than 20% RO water, with matrix in and out, carbon in and out, and medicated wondershells initially with meds.  All water parameters fairly in check before I left for vacation last week.  Used a little Alkaline buffer to move KH a little up, but ph mostly ok to a little low. Fins looking better as well.
I returned yesterday and he ignored food and continuously opened and closed mouth- and is still doing it. I re-read osmoregulation, old fish, etc articles but I'm at a loss.
Im sure Carl and Devon remember my fish- 19 year old Tilapia approx 12" long. 
He still is swimming around some but mouth movement has my concerned this might be it.
Any thoughts??
Thanks, kevin

[devonjohnsgard]

Jan 20, 2017 16:57:21 GMT -5 kevin said:

My Tiliapia Buttercoffery had a fin rot issue back in November which I treated with a couple fungal treatments exactly as instructed. Did water changes, replaced with less than 20% RO water, with matrix in and out, carbon in and out, and medicated wondershells initially with meds.  All water parameters fairly in check before I left for vacation last week.  Used a little Alkaline buffer to move KH a little up, but ph mostly ok to a little low. Fins looking better as well.
I returned yesterday and he ignored food and continuously opened and closed mouth- and is still doing it. I re-read osmoregulation, old fish, etc articles but I'm at a loss.
Im sure Carl and Devon remember my fish- 19 year old Tilapia approx 12" long. 
He still is swimming around some but mouth movement has my concerned this might be it.
Any thoughts??
Thanks, kevin

Temp and O2 are good? No unusual stressors?

Still using electrolytes?

[Carl]

What are your water parameters?
This also includes both before and after the water change.

Drastic swings in pH can cause osmoregulation issues, as can missing minerals

Adding some salt at 1 teaspoon per gallon may help

Carl

[kevin]

Thanks for getting back to me.
Devon- temp pretty ok, possibly a degree or two higher than I like or is normal. It was 81.5 when I got home. I've been getting it back to 79.5-80.5.
I ran out of regular wondershells, so since it had been 2-3 weeks since I did Fungus Guard then Fungus Cure, I figured I'd go ahead and put a medicated shell (1/2 of large) in to supply calcium etc.
The meds may have been stressful, but in each of the water changes, I used stress Guard, then Stability.
I had originally put some salt in with the first water chg on 11/25. Less than max--around 4 tbs at 65gal.
As far as water parameters, it was still fairly stable from beginning:
Nitrate 80 (ok for tank), GH 300, KH 120, ph 7.5.
That was 12/9 but I recall they weren't off when I started.
Now, both boxes had different instructions. Fungus Guard was 25% chg, then drop 4 tabs, wait 4 day, then repeat and at that time I put matrix carts back in to not lose all BB.
12/9 25% out, 6 gal RO back in, added salt, left med W/S in, then did the Fungus Cure as noted. that was 48 hr intervals. Water chg 25% after done.
Then put new carbon carts back in on 12/13. By 12/15 water not cleared of meds yet so put large bag of carbon to remove meds/color.
Water: nitate 80, KH 80, Ph 7.2. Next day added 2 tsp of Alkaline Buffer. Big carbon cleared water good.
1/3 fins seemed better.
1/10 not as rapid improvement
1/15 dropped half med w/s because going away.
I put more salt in last night, and water was ph 7.6, kh 120, gh 300, nitrate <80.
Also this whole time no chorine, no nitrites, and ammonia .05 or less depending on if I just dropped food.
He'd been eating ok, Paradigm carnivore, eats pieces from top (I wet, then feed him) then finds few on bottom.

Thats all from notes I wrote along the way.
Hopefully you'll see something.
Still mouthing, kinda dark in color.
heater dropped some so bringing up from 78. Was on timer to drop from 81 yesterday.
Trying to stabilize.

Also, not sure how to tell 02??
K

[kevin]

On the 02, I do have air bubbles, still using a large #5 sponge filter with its own pump, and the HOB filter has the wheels removed but flows thru carbon filter and matrix cartridge.
Seems like plenty of movement.

[Carl]

Hi Kevin;
As per O2, circulation really tells the story, which seems adequate.
You need about 5 turns per hour, which likely you are getting.
You can test the airstone by dropping it in a lift tuve with the top of the tube just above the water and then measung the flow rate per 60 seconds (& multiplying from there)

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Basic_Aquarium_Principles.html

I would utilize 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon for now, which is high, but Tilapia can handle this. If not, you can drop it back down to a tablespoon per 5 gallons


What is real important in my opinion is to not change pH much before & after water changes (at most .5 which is still a 5 times change on the logarithmic pH scale), nor to have to drastic of swings in GH either, but unless I am misreading your posts, this does not appear to be happening

I would see if the Nitrates could be dropped a bit more, not that this is a major factor in the problem you are describing.
Try more Matrix in a slower part of your HOB filter or even in a bag by itself next to your sponge filter

Let us know his progress!

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Agree with Carl!

[kevin]

I'm not sure if he's dying for good this time. He'd been arc'd a bit last 24 hr and still sucking air/water. He doesn't move much but I'm at least trying to keep him upright. Otherwise wants to float sideways.
Hasn't eaten since I got home Thursday. Not sure before that, nephew was feeding.

I do see something odd for my tank- some bubbles when I move rocks. Figure this is trapped nitrogen but not sure if from good cycling or anaerobic material. I do have one of your matrix pill bottles next to sponge in addition to cartridges.
During all the med water changes, the gravel got cleaned pretty good so I don't think high bio load
I know he's old; still has HITH and hadn't really bounced back after fin issue.

Just not sure whether to dig in and do major tank work or its his time.
Don't want to see him suffer tho- even if that's possible.
Probably me feeling super powerless.
Thanks for being there. This is harder than I thought.

[kevin]

But I will add salt as suggested.

[kevin]

Thanks for your ideas.
-- guess it was his time to go.

[bettarescue]

Kevin, I am so sorry you are hurting right now- I know how hard it can be doing everything in your power and still loosing a beloved fish. It can be such a heart wrenching and exhausting journey, and in the end it is left in the hands of the moderator in the sky. Each fish holds a special place in our hearts and lives, sometimes it feels as if the hardest part is the the pieces of us they take with them. *

Leah

[Carl]

Sorry you lost your Butterkoferi Kevin

The bubbles you witnessed may have been Hydrogen Sulfide
I have on rare occassions seen fish deaths from tank where Hydrogen Sulfide was released, but the osmoregulation symptoms your Butterkoferi were displaying were not present if my memory serves me correctly.

My guess it was simply his time, but that does not make it any easier

Carl

[kevin]

Thanks Leah and Carl. You know, you fight a few major battles like that and you start to think they are invincible from things like weakness and age. I think he was already 5-8 years into bonus rounds at 18+ yrs old.
I think it's been as hard as any dog.
I think I have to dismantle his tank and probably start fresh, especially since being so big, he's always been a "one fish tank".
I may post in the 'aftermath' folder in a little bit.
I'll still stay connected in the lounge.
Much respect, kevin

[devonjohnsgard]

Sorry buddy.