|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 3, 2016 17:29:37 GMT -5
A new experiment to be released soon by Broken Aquarium. How light affects Redox. Does it reduce or does it oxidize? Do different types of light effect reduction or oxidization? How it can be applied More to come from BA!
|
|
|
Post by childofiam on Feb 7, 2016 14:31:59 GMT -5
I will be looking forward to this....
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 8, 2016 11:49:03 GMT -5
looks a little blurry for some reason :/
|
|
|
Post by childofiam on Feb 8, 2016 12:50:49 GMT -5
A new experiment to be released soon by Broken Aquarium. How light affects Redox. Does it reduce or does it oxidize? Do different types of light effect reduction or oxidization? How it can be applied More to come from BA! Is this the Redox meter AAP is selling?
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Feb 8, 2016 16:50:19 GMT -5
Yes. This one was different from the one I used years ago, so we took some time figuring out the best way to calibrate it without needing to purchase expensive solutions. We found calibrating to 250+mV in distilled water works great Now it works like a champ. Carl
|
|
rogierfvv
Full Member
3rd time around aquarium keeper, observer, learner
Posts: 84
|
Post by rogierfvv on Apr 9, 2016 12:46:46 GMT -5
I've been wondering myself... some days I think I see an easy 10 point drop in the ORP with lighting, but that's usually in the first hour or so, so I need to do it more deliberately, and later in the day.
Today, my ORP was 90 before the lights came on and a shade less after about an hour (circa 85). Five hours of light and a 35% water change later my OP now reads 33. In terms of rH this would be a drop from mid 23, to mid 22...
Now I need to take similar measurements on a day when I don't do a water change, so that the light is the ONLY difference.
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 9, 2016 13:23:06 GMT -5
Yup, we did this for over a month, just measured light a s the variable. There was a reducing effect, though someday there was an oxidation effect, which we can't explain.
|
|
rogierfvv
Full Member
3rd time around aquarium keeper, observer, learner
Posts: 84
|
Post by rogierfvv on Apr 10, 2016 10:32:26 GMT -5
OK. I am quite determined to start tracking this down to the level of rH, but my readings won't be worth much until I have an accurate digital pH probe, which I am planning to get in the near future in one form or another... at least as of yesterday, after about 60 days my tank has fully established a healthy nitrogen cycle, so I am now (hopefully) "steady state." I also turned on the UV yesterday (using the TMC/Vecton 200), so after today that is a constant. I will endeavor to sample the light at some points during the day a few times, but at least like a week apart or so, since I will obviously have to be around all day to do it. Then, when I finally get a digital pH probe, I will probably repeat it. This is becoming an important issue for me, as I suspect that the slow, but steady drop in ORP I experienced the last two weeks in fact tracked the uptake of the nitrogen cycle in my tank.
|
|
|
Post by childofiam on Apr 11, 2016 8:14:34 GMT -5
3 days ago I lowered my lights from 8 inches from the surface to 6 inches from the surface. My OPR dropped from a 250 average. First 24 hours ORP read 232, second day ORP 228, third day it was 225. The other thing I noted was my PH took a dip that first 24 hrs to 6.5 and then day two it was 6.6 and day three it read 6.7 My PH has been steady at 6.7 up to the time I moved the lights closer. I take all my readings at 1 pm everyday. Can the PH be effected by the ORP like this or is there something else that happened to cause this? Other readings are stable at KH 71.6 ppm, GH 161.1 ppm, NH3 = 0, NO2 = 0, NO3 = 15, Ca2+ = 100, PO 4\3+ = 0, CU+ = 0
Richard
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 11, 2016 14:48:33 GMT -5
Can the PH be effected by the ORP like this or is there something else that happened to cause this? Other readings are stable at KH 71.6 ppm, GH 161.1 ppm, NH3 = 0, NO2 = 0, NO3 = 15, Ca2+ = 100, PO 4\3+ = 0, CU+ = 0 Richard ORP is tied to acids and alk in the tank, which is tied to pH.
|
|
rogierfvv
Full Member
3rd time around aquarium keeper, observer, learner
Posts: 84
|
Post by rogierfvv on Apr 12, 2016 9:38:45 GMT -5
OK, an interim result... for the first two days about a 15-20 point drop in ORP between just before lights on, and about 1 hour after. At some point I will return to this issue, after I figure out a few other things.
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 12, 2016 10:41:34 GMT -5
OK, an interim result... for the first two days about a 15-20 point drop in ORP between just before lights on, and about 1 hour after. At some point I will return to this issue, after I figure out a few other things. About what we saw too.
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 12, 2016 10:47:25 GMT -5
Wanted to let you guys know... Seems like the right thread, since it has both of your attentions.
AAP is now working with Hanna Instruments. They're actually excited to work with our company, because of how we drive content to the hobby. So, you guys will be seeing more work around some new digital toys!
If you guys wanted to use us as a source for your tools, we'd appreciate it. At least I'd appreciate a couple of suggestions of what meters could you see yourself using. We just need to get an idea of what we need to carry for people.
We know the pH meter is very popular. ORP/o2? dKH meter? What would be useful to you guys?
Thank you!
|
|
|
Post by childofiam on Apr 12, 2016 12:55:43 GMT -5
Wanted to let you guys know... Seems like the right thread, since it has both of your attentions. AAP is now working with Hanna Instruments. They're actually excited to work with our company, because of how we drive content to the hobby. So, you guys will be seeing more work around some new digital toys! If you guys wanted to use us as a source for your tools, we'd appreciate it. At least I'd appreciate a couple of suggestions of what meters could you see yourself using. We just need to get an idea of what we need to carry for people. We know the pH meter is very popular. ORP/o2? dKH meter? What would be useful to you guys? Thank you! Well lets see... So you know where I am in my budget, I set aside about 2500.00 a year in my budget for my hobby so my budget is close to the limit for now. But... in a few months, August, I will have a increases in the Aquarium budget so I will be looking for a PH, TDS, O2 and a dKH would be great too. I think the O2 will be the first one I will add. Will the dKH meter read both KH and GH? That would be awesome if it does... Richard
|
|
rogierfvv
Full Member
3rd time around aquarium keeper, observer, learner
Posts: 84
|
Post by rogierfvv on Apr 12, 2016 15:27:02 GMT -5
I have the combi tester ORP/PH/Temp on my wish list, because that will give me the rH with greater accuracy... Eventually other digital testers will be useful too... once you get serious about this stuff, the inaccuracies of reading some of the commonly used testing methods become an obstacle. Good enough for government work is no longer good enough ;-)
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 12, 2016 18:11:36 GMT -5
Great suggestions guys. I'll consider that and take a look at what they offer. I'll look for a KH/GH...That would be nice.
These guys do have a MAP pricing, but we could work on a price break for you guys for the help....and being awesome.
THANK YOU!
|
|
rogierfvv
Full Member
3rd time around aquarium keeper, observer, learner
Posts: 84
|
Post by rogierfvv on May 5, 2016 12:27:08 GMT -5
Hmmm... I have been re-testing this off and on... and I find that the difference is not always that great. Lately I've tested it within 2/3 hours of the lights coming on with essentially no difference, and in recent days my 29G has begun to be quite stable at an ORP of 80-90, and pH in the 6.8-7.0 range, though I should re-test that late in the day after 9 hours of photo synthesis.
My lighting picture has changed, and I now have a 20W Flora-glo tube (2700K, 650 lumen), a 3W 6700K micro LED Solarflare, and a 7W Marineland hidden LED at 6500K, and an estimated 750 lumen.
The thank is also covered with duckweed, so the light is very muted and soft.
|
|
|
Post by troybtj on May 8, 2016 19:33:52 GMT -5
I'd suggest a TDS/EC meter as well.
|
|
|
Post by Carl on May 9, 2016 9:11:56 GMT -5
Here is a quote from one of my cited references in the "Aqurium Redox" article "Photons stimulate the mitochondria and this triggers a healing response. This is because the machinery of our cells is photosensitive."And "Redox Signaling Molecules are created by the mitochondria when ATP is produced. So, anything that boosts ATP production will likewise give a proportionate boost to Redox Signaling Molecules"www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html#resource7Also from this cited reference: "Red and infrared wavelengths from 660 nm (nanometers) to 880 nm penetrate the skin more effectively than other wavelengths"In reading and re-reading the article, I believe the wave length is only necessary to penetrate the skin, it is the generic photons of energy that have a positive Redox effect. So applying this to aquariums, it may not necessarily mean near infrared light, I suspect a balanced light source may be best that leans toward the blue light spectrum for water penetration Carl
|
|
|
Post by troybtj on May 12, 2016 21:22:16 GMT -5
If you want the "Sorta Scientific Version", Here it is. Those who are familiar will understand where I've oversimplified a lot, but it should be enough to grasp the basics. All light is made of photons, or vice-versa. The frequency the photons vibrate at determines the color/wavelength of the light. Infrared light is wavelengths over 1000nm, while UVA is around 400nm, and UVC is around 250nm. That covers the visible spectrum and immediate neighbors, all the colors are between about 450 (blue)-700nm (deep red to near IR). The most important thing here is that the shorter the wavelength, the higher "energy" each photon has. To the extreme, even shorter wavelength/higher frequency photons are the commonly known X-Rays and Gamma rays. Since photons are subatomic particles with mass, they can disturb chemical bonds, from bumping an electron off a molecule (Visible) to breaking apart molecular bonds (UVC), to modifying the makeup of each atom directly (Gamma Rays). All photons have a "Chance" to do any of the above, but the higher energy events are far more likely to happen with a high energy/high frequency photon interaction over a longer wavelength/visible spectrum photon. UVC is better at breaking molecular bonds as well as rearranging electron configurations, this is how UVC sterilizes, and why Dwell Time is important. The longer the substance is exposed to UVC light, the greater the chance that all molecular bonds will have been hit by several high energy photons, causing the molecular bond, from simple weak chemical bonds to stronger ones in simple celled DNA material to be broken, rendering the pathogen/organism inert or dead. Hence the reason sunlight causes skin cancer, and sunblock/sunglasses block light of wavelengths shorter than UVA to protect your eyes and skin, UVA tans well, UVC mostly causes damage, burns, and cancer. Near the limits, at X-Ray to Gamma Ray Sources are used medically to "disrupt" cancerous tumors, with the same interactions mentioned in this post, but at far, far higher energies. Given enough time, visible light can cause many of the similar reactions, since all photons have a "chance", it's just that the chance goes down quickly as a function of wavelength. Therefore, for a bond that would take 0.1 seconds to break under UVC light (on average, for example - not math accurate) may take 2 hours of artificial blue to visible light (also average, example, etc.). This is also the reason why setting something such as dishes, aquariums, or laundry in the sun for several hours also sterilizes the items. Also take into account that in addition to breaking apart molecules, the moving of electrons can also help molecules to form. An example of this is in our atmosphere and the Ozone layer which re-creates itself due to the UV radiation going through the air. This is why specific redox values (oxidation potential = reduction potential at 0mV) are difficult to measure the same way twice, they are continually varying in an active closed system (compared to sample in a beaker). As long as an aquarium is a a bit positive ORP ( Reducing, < +300mV, >0mV-ish), it is good to go. An oxidizing aquarium (< -50mV) would kill more life than it helped. For example, a high ORP value is what is looked for in pools and hot tubs for ensuring all the germs get kilt. Also why you can take a quart glass jar of your aquarium water to a pool supply store for a free one time ORP measurement if they are feeling nice.
|
|