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Post by aguavida on Jul 22, 2015 1:50:33 GMT -5
Hello, first of all I'm an aquarium newbie who is very grateful for all the help and information the very cool staff at AAP have provided me as far as product information and much more to get me started on this wonderful hobby.
I'm on the 8th night of starting a new 20 gallon planted aquarium (11 plants so far) with Fluorite substrate, driftwood and an Aquaray 600 for lighting. Despite the many hours I have spent reading articles on the AAP website about cycling, filtration, lighting, substrate, electrolytes, buffers, water chemistry, etc., I find myself confused about certain things and would love some guidance.
I have installed a Vecton UV with a Fluidized Sand Filter. I added ceramic rings to the bottom as suggested in one of the articles with the provided silica sand. I have a seeded prefilter attached to a Rio 1000 pump which I'm hoping will be sufficient to seed the tank and FSB but maybe not. The only other thing I have added to the water after filling up the aquarium is Betta Spa water conditioner and a wonder shell which I also read somewhere that it dissolves in a powdery form when the parameters are wacked which apparently is the case in my tank.
This may have been mistake #1 but I didn't check water parameters until day 4 at which everything tested 0 from NH3 to Nitrites and Nitrates. PH tested 8. I had to add 24 drops for GH to turn from orange to green and 13 drops for KH to turn from blue to yellow and today on day 8 everything is still at 0, the PH tested 7.8, I had to add 32 drops for GH to turn color and 14 drops for KH to turn color. I read somewhere on your site about multiplying this by a particular number but don't recall and this goes far beyond the chart maximum number of 12 on the test kit instruction sheet. What does this equate to in ppm and what do I need to do to correct this as far as buffering or anything else because it appears way too high. Will I need to remove some of this water and add RO water which would seem more complicated and if so would most likely be forced to add electrolytes? If that were the case, what form of electrolytes? I may be getting ahead of myself here...
There is also a slimy semi transparent film on everything which I assume is a form of bacteria and plants look great but I know it's still very fresh. I have also sprinkled a tiny bit of crushed flake food a couple of times to assist in cycling but fear I would be creating more of a problem so have not added more and I have not added my preferred Betta fish yet because of this.
Please help and thank you in advance!
Ingrid
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Post by Carl on Jul 22, 2015 9:32:32 GMT -5
Welcome to Everything Aquatic! Have you tested your tap water? This would be a starting point in knowing what other additives to add and how much. To convert from dKH or dGH multiply by 17.9 to get ppm for this size aquarium and considering what you want to accomplish, I would suggest just 1/2 a medium Wonder Shell. As well dust around a Wonder Shells can be a symptom of excessive sodium, what is your home water system? Finally, the seeding of the Prefilter will spread to your FSB filter, but this will take a few weeks and fish or other sources of "food" for the bacteria must be present for the "seasoned filter media" method of aquarium cycling to work. References: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.htmlwww.fishbeginner.info/home/nitrogen-cycle/From the Fish Beginner article linked to above: "Do the Bacteria need to be fed? The simple answer is yes! If the fish or other aquarium inhabitants are removed or lowered in numbers, the nitrifying bacteria will die off. Then if fish are suddenly added, especially in larger numbers, chances are your aquarium will have spikes in ammonia until the bacteria re-establish in numbers needed to meet the change in bio load.
In a new aquarium, this is even more worthy of note as any fragile new bacterial colonies that are present can easily disappear without “food” from fish waste. If the seasoned fish filter method is used, but no fish or other means of feeding these bacteria are added, the bacteria will quickly die off and the cycling will fail."Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 22, 2015 10:57:20 GMT -5
Carl kinda covered it.
I would suggest a water change to help your GH and KH come back down. The GH is a little high, but both of these are not serious enough to cause immediate harm.
Maybe just straight RO.
What are the parameters out of the tap?
How do the plants look? New green growth on anyone?
Welcome to the forum, btw! Great to have you here.
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Post by aguavida on Jul 22, 2015 13:02:58 GMT -5
Hi all, thanks for the heads up on testing the tap water- an obviously important step I had missed! My tap water PH is 8, GH is 196ppm and KH is 196ppm as well. (The water in the aquarium GH is 572.8ppm and KH is 250.6 ppm). Why such a massive rise on GH and is this detrimental?? Should I do a 25% water change or more? To answer Carl's question, I do not have a home water system at all. I will also now break my medium Wonder Shell in half. Plants look alright too. There's brand new water lily shoots from a bulb that had nothing on it when I planted it a week ago. More questions- sorry! How much is a small amount from where I read of crushed food flake do I need to feed for the cycling before I notice any rise and fall of NH3, nitrites and nitrates for a 20 gallon? I assume I need to test everyday while feeding and do I not rinse the pre filter sponge in conditioned water while the cycling is taking place at all during this process? It's kinda mucky... Last question although the answer is probably out there somewhere I haven't yet come across- how often do I need to rinse or replace the ceramic media and the silica sand in the FSB once it is colonized by bacteria? Thank you much, Ingrid
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 22, 2015 17:17:03 GMT -5
The parameters you have are not detrimental. Just space your WS out more. 500ppm is where you want to start concerning, so I would do a water change.
Just a pitch of food... If everything is 0, there's not a cycle yet. It could take up to 8 weeks if you dont add a cycle aid.
I would rinse my media in cycles. So one this time, one next time... Once a month maybe.
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Post by Carl on Jul 22, 2015 17:23:14 GMT -5
Hi all, thanks for the heads up on testing the tap water- an obviously important step I had missed! My tap water PH is 8, GH is 196ppm and KH is 196ppm as well. (The water in the aquarium GH is 572.8ppm and KH is 250.6 ppm). Why such a massive rise on GH and is this detrimental?? Should I do a 25% water change or more? You already started with a high GH, so adding a full Wonder Shell will bring it up. No, while quite high, this is not detrimental as per our Aquarium Chemistry Article; GH Section. Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#ghThis is a good sign! Are there any fish present? With plants present, it will also make it difficult to establish bacteria since the plants will also consume nutrients needed by the bacteria, especially without fish present. From our Nitrogen Cycle Article, Fish Food Method Section: "4 ppm is a typical fishless cycling target whether using the fish food method or ammonia. Higher (7 ppm) or lower (3 ppm) is also fine for healthy bacterial colony growth (based on mine and others in the maintenance communities experience). Regardless of fishless cycling method chosen, the bio load is always going to be in flux (higher or lower). When higher is needed, nitrifying bacteria double in population in 18 to 24 hours. When less are needed, they die back and are consumed by each other."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html#fishfoodSo in others words enough liquified fish food daily to bring your ammonia up to these levels while fish are not present. Replacement is rare, usually additional sand is needed due being "kicked out" of the filter. If the sand or ceramic media were to become "Gummy" or clump, I would suggest a rinse in de-chlorinated water Carl
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Post by aguavida on Jul 23, 2015 1:53:05 GMT -5
Devon, sorry I don't understand what you mean by spacing out WS? I did perform a 25% water change and rinsed the pre filter sponge in the used aquarium water. The GH came down to 501ppm and the KH down to 214.8ppm. Since these are naturally high in my tap water, would it be wiser to not use Wonder Shells under these circumstances?
I have no fish present to answer Carl's question.
I will add perhaps more than a pinch of flake food dissolved in water everyday since I do now have quite a bit more plants until I see some action and will update when it happens.
Thanks a million!
Ingrid
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 23, 2015 10:50:12 GMT -5
Spacing out the wonder shell looks like.... if you say do weekly water changes...Add one on this change, but no the next change. Then add one the next change. So skip one.
You need the Cations in the shell, so while it may be increasing the GH, the Cations benefit over rule the increasing GH. Just a small presents of it in the aquarium at all times is what you are shooting for.
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Amy T
Junior Member
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Post by Amy T on Jul 23, 2015 13:29:18 GMT -5
Just my two cents since I just started a 55g and made lots of mistakes....I would not use fish food. I used fish food and created a huge bacterial problem in my tank from the excess food that accumulated in my tank and filters which I was unaware of until fish started dying. I don't know how many times you added fish food, but I would rinse out your filters, remove any slimy build up from the tubing, use a gravel vacuum on the substrate and use straight ammonia instead. In addition, my tank never fully cycled because I didn't realize that the biggest indicator for a completely cycled tank is the presence of Nitrates! I thought it was cycled when the ammonia and nitrites increased and then went back to zero and nitrates were also zero. Oops! You may already know this, but I did a LOT of reading and I still didn't get it. It just isn't explained well. Ammonia should increase, nitrites should increase, then both will return to zero and nitrates will increase. Nitrates tell you that your filters are doing their jobs. As I think Devon(?) mentioned in another post...nitrates tell you when to perform water changes in a healthy cycled tank that has no other parameter changes/problems. When they reach 40ppm is when I do my water changes. An article that I found extremely helpful for understanding this process was this study brokenaquarium.com/2015/02/25/experiment-1-cycle-aids-fritz-vs-seachem/. Look at the graphs showing the ammonia and nitrite increases and decreases to give you an idea of time frames for changes in parameters. Great info.! The next tank that I start will be done WITH fish and the use of Prime, Stability and Seachem Ammonia Tests (or Ammonia Alert) to detoxify ammonia and nitrites while monitoring water parameters daily. Devon also made it clear to me that you only need a little piece of wondershell to be in your aquarium at all times. It will dissolve as it is needed. For my 55g I use a piece about the size of a medium strawberry and it takes almost 2 weeks for it to dissolve completely. My tap water has a gH of 69. Just make sure you put it in a spot in your tank that gets the least amount of water movement. Even though your gH is high your fish will still need minerals and electrolytes to be replenished by the wondershell. Do plants also need the wondershell? I am curious if it is necessary to add the wondershell before fish are introduced. Carl/Devon - Also, didn't I read somewhere that you shouldn't use the UV sterilizer when cycling a tank? Hope this helps! Carl/Devon - Please correct me if I'm wrong:)
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 24, 2015 9:11:42 GMT -5
Nice response to me I'm glad some info we gave made since. Plants use the mineral, esp. Cal and mag, so yes wonder shells are great for plants and some prefer a higher GH. You could hold off on the sterilized, I would say depending on method. The bacteria live in the filter and water should be going through the filter before the sterilizer. The sterilzer affects the water column.
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Post by Carl on Jul 24, 2015 9:41:59 GMT -5
With the seasoned filter method, running the UV from the beginning is OK and in fact is recommended. For all other methods I would wait for 4-6 weeks
Carl
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Post by aguavida on Jul 27, 2015 13:12:58 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
I'm on day 14 since I started a new aquarium and I'm now regretting having planted it before the beginning of the nitrogen cycle as I'm observing some of the more delicate plants such as montecarlo starting to become transparent on some of the leaves. I had recently added Downoi and these completely turned to mush in a matter of days! The hardier plants such as Pennywort, Dwarf Hairgrass, Ludwigia and Anacharis Elodea are doing ok but a couple of the leaves on my banana plant, star grass and Brazilian pennywort are starting to become transparent as well as the new shoots on my water lily. The Fissidens Fontanus I have tied to driftwood has a fuzzy weird thing around it and the upper part of the glass has accumulated a brownish film.
So here goes a few more questions and my first concerning question is WHY?
My other concern is using the fish food for cycling vs. straight up Ammonia when I'm attempting to do a FISHLESS cycle as I'm not interested in killing any fish in the process. Wondering if Amy's suggestion of using just Ammonia for the reasons she mentioned above might be a better choice? I have yet to see the NH3 climb above 0.25, but I'm only on day 4 of fish food cycling. Should I switch to straight Ammonia instead? If so, how much do I use per day in my 20 gallon? Should I also be testing my water more than once a day?
I'm also not using any cycling AIDS which I'm assuming are not really necessary for ESTABLISHING a healthy and properly cycled aquarium, although these would perhaps speed up the process and without them would be much slower? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Lastly, back to KH and GH: Would having these at a certain ppm number separately or combined be more appropriate for a planted aquarium? Would either of these be affecting my plant situation?
Thank you for your guidance,
Ingrid
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 27, 2015 16:10:13 GMT -5
Ingrid, You will more than likely have plants melt back and regrow. You might come across algae as well as the plants get used to the new environment. This is very common and I would allow like 4-8 weeks to know what the plants are really doing. Just make sure they have food. How long are your lights on? What ferts, including something like excel are you using. Actually having plants while the tank is cycle kinda helps. They use up excess Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. Using cycle aids does speed up the process and also established the cycle. Here is a link to a study we did, showing how long the cycle took with certain aids and a control. www.brokenaquarium.com/2015/02/25/experiment-1-cycle-aids-fritz-vs-seachem/. You need a good GH and KH just like a fish only tank. So stick to the parameters you were already shooting for.
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Post by Carl on Jul 27, 2015 17:53:06 GMT -5
Having plants in while cycling can be both a bad and good.
Generally of fish are present the plants provide one more method of keeping the ammonia/nitrites low. When fish are not present, plants can slow or even stall bacterial growth
The use of pure ammonia has the advantage of no risk of introducing any pathogens. The pure ammonia method on the downside would be more toxic to plants in the aquarium already
Carl
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Post by aguavida on Jul 27, 2015 20:07:03 GMT -5
Lights are on between 8-10 hours a day.
I guess I won't panic about the algae if you say this is normal and just clean the glass and continue performing filter cleanings and small water changes, but I don't understand how the plants that are disintegrating can regrow when they have no roots. I have been taking them out and discarding them because they have turned to mush. You think I should leave them in?
I purchased Flourish, Flourish Excel, Flourish Trace and Flourish Iron from you but have not used any of it yet as I was waiting for plants to acclimate beforehand. Should I use them now?
I haven't made any decisions on maintaining KH/GH parameters at a certain number as I'm new at this and am only basing my concerns on the actual numbers provided in your articles such as aiming for a KH between 80-150ppm as being good and GH between 150-300 being best so I was asking based on your experience where those numbers would suit a planted aquarium best, while taking into consideration the addition of fish such as silver dollars, guppies and bettas later after the aquarium has cycled.
After reading some more, do you think I should experiment by adding 10-20% RO water given my high GH/KH tap water and throwing in a 1/4 medium WS? and would you also recommend the addition of Bisulfate Salts? or would the WS be enough?
I guess I'll go ahead and add a cycle aid together with fish food instead of the pure ammonia method as I don't want to poison my plants.
Thanks,
Ingrid
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Post by angelminx on Jul 28, 2015 2:18:28 GMT -5
Hi, Ingrid! I'm not sure what some of the plants you mentioned are, but I would assume that many (truly aquatic) plants would react like the Cryptocoryne species that sometimes present with "crypt melt"...even if they seem to disappear completely, if they are left in place they will grow back shortly, after they've had a chance to adjust. Plants that have been grown emersed (many aquatic plants for sale are) will have their leaves die off as they become adjusted to being planted completely underwater and develop new, often completely different-looking leaves, but this is more gradual. I also use the Seachem Flourish products, including the Potassium, and every 3 months or so I add Flourish Tabs--especially to the sword plants' roots. I have made some changes, so I am trying to readjust my dosing strategy, and am trying a few new things. However, I may go back to what I was doing before (but I don't have quite as many plants as before) because recently about 1/4" or so of the tips of the Cryptocoryne balansae and the unknown sword are turning "black". I think it's just algae though, because it "rubs" off (with a little effort), but I haven't been able to figure out the cause. I have a 55-gallon tank, and I had been dosing 1 capful each of Iron and Excel daily (a few months ago I upped the Excel to 2 caps/day); I do weekly water changes (my tank is over-stocked), and afterwards (on the day of the change) I would add 2 caps of Potassium, followed the next day by 3 caps of Trace, the next day would be 1 cap of Flourish, on the 4th day would be another 2 caps of Potassium, then 3 caps of Trace on the 5th day, then 1 cap of Flourish again on the 6th day. If my water change schedule was going to get delayed for some reason, I would add another 2 caps of Potassium on the 7th day. Usually I was able to follow this schedule, but occasionally things would get thrown off when I had to drastically change the H2O change schedule for some reason...I always try to do it on the same day of the week, but things do happen . I don't remember how I did the dosing when I 1st started out, but then I originally only had plastic plants, so by the time I got around to adding live plants the tank had been running for a couple of years, so I've never given a thought to starting a tank from scratch and adding plants at the "same" time. Sorry I can't help you there. The tank has been up and running for over 15 years now, and when I started with my plants I upgraded to a twin-bulb striplight (standard fluorescent bulbs, so plants tolerant of lower lighting)--last year I switched to the GrowBeam 600 LEDs Carl sells. I originally had pea gravel in the tank, but after Flourite became available I added some of it, switching over to Flourite only after I had saved up ( and they had come out with the "brown", although what I received didn't look like what is pictured as the brown variety now). Last year I switched it all out (1/3 at a time) again, deciding to go with a mixture of Fluorite Black Sand mixed with their Onyx Sand, and capped it off with black gravel (I would have liked to get a slightly smaller gravel size than I did, but couldn't find any). Carl had suggested just using the sand where I was going to put the plants (to save money), but I was pretty sure I'd be moving things around as I went along, and couldn't predict what I was going to do, so I did the sand all along the whole bottom of the tank. [Edit: I chose to use Onyx Sand for some of the sand because my water is naturally low in KH, and I tended to have occasional pH crashes. I don't remember having them since the change, although the KH does ( only) occasionally dip lower than I would like...I usually add 3/4 tsp at my (generally) 9 gallon H20 changes, but don't worry about it with top-offs. ( I also fight with high GH levels).] Angelminx
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 28, 2015 9:06:38 GMT -5
I would start using ferts as the number one reason plants start to die when they get to the home aquarium is starting staving.
I would do a large dose of poss and iron if you have it.
The source of the plants most likely were heavy feeders and even grow the plants out of water, so there is some major adjustment. Feeding is required.
I would suggest a simple on/off light timer, just to make on/off times the same. Seems to help with algae.
If there is any root system, I would save the plant, even just let it float on the surface if need be. It will regrow.
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Post by aguavida on Jul 28, 2015 13:44:02 GMT -5
This information is soooo helpful and such a relief to not make me freak out about totally losing the plants I just spent quite a bit of money on. I will begin fertilizing today using angelminx dosing schedule at the same time continue my cycling, observe and note the results and hope for the best.
Thank you so very much!
Ingrid
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Post by angelminx on Jul 28, 2015 17:33:37 GMT -5
Just remember to size the dose to the tank, I use capfuls because my tank is 55 gallons.
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Post by aguavida on Jul 31, 2015 18:47:03 GMT -5
Hi guys, I'm on day 18 since I started my aquarium from scratch of fishless cycling but full of plants and with what I thought was a seeded sponge and now I question how truly seeded it may have been since I let it sit in a bucket of used aquarium water for a week with no filter or anything and believe that may have killed most of the bacteria so now I'm on day 5 of adding Stability with a pinch of fish food and decided to unplug the Vecton UV during this period until day 7, but the water has become cloudy and has what appears to be mosquito larvae!! This doesn't seem normal. More plants keep melting although I'm regularly feeding now and some of these have no roots so I don't see how these would regrow and don't know if I should leave in or remove if it is affecting water quality. I have performed 2 water changes with 25% RO which brought the GH down to 447.5ppm and KH down to 179ppm which seems better. Ammonia is currently at 0.50 and PH is stable at 7.8.
What should I do?
Thx,
Ingrid
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