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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jul 20, 2015 14:50:35 GMT -5
Even us most experienced keepers need help...lol
I have always had ammonia in my tap, so I use prime. I did a test on 2 day old water (I run a pond pump to circulate it. Even after 2 days it was .5ppm.
I have major issues when I start adding water to my betta fry tank, and end up loosing most if not all the spawn. I tested my last fry loss tank (around 200 no survivors) and the tank was .25ppm ammonia.
We invested in a whole house water system (my first question was does it remove ammonia...answer was yes...NOT). It is still .5ppm ammonia out of the tap. The RO (1g) unit is 0 ppm. So...after all this rambling, I am not using my RO and rebuilding my water. What I am thinking is either set up my huge "arse" canister filter onto the holding tub (32 gallon trashcan) or use an old 3 stage RO unit and just run filter media through it like a canister filter. I have also been using zoo-lite? to remove the ammonia, but that takes forever. If I did water changes like I should, I would be going through 60 - 100g a day. It take the remover at least 24 hrs to remove the ammonia. This is why I don't do WC like I should be...waiting on the water... Now, I have about 15-30 jarred betta. I need to jar some juvies, but I don't want to move them from 0 ammonia to .5ppm ammonia, and this is why I also don't change the jarred but every 3 days or so. I am severly neglecting my fish, but when I do wc, I feel like I'm doing more harm than good. I need to figure out the best way to remove ammonia from the holding tub.
Does the canister filter sound like a good idea???
Lori
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Post by Carl on Jul 21, 2015 9:40:25 GMT -5
Lori; What test kit are you using? Many test kits test "all" ammonia, NH3 & NH4 It is possible that you are measuring NH4 (ammonium) which is not toxic instead of toxic NH3. If you were to use a RO system, you need to restore electrolytes, otherwise over time this could become a critical issue for fish health. A Canister filter could be used for just ammonia removal, filling it with Zeolite, but as you noted Zeolite is not real fast ( & sometimes unreliable from my experience). I will also add that I think something else may be the problem, as .25 ppm ammonia (even NH3) should not be deadly. BTW, nice to see our famous Betta Pro here at Everything Aquatic again  This article has some good information about RO water use: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.htmlCarl |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jul 21, 2015 12:04:10 GMT -5
Carl, Thanks for the reply. I don't plan on using the RO water. I am too lazy to rebuild it. My test kit is a "Master" test kit from Petco/Smart. I will have to check which it looks for. I have always assumed the ammonia would be non-toxic, but I don't have any issues until I start adding water. I have used seasoned spawn mops and/or seasoned filters to help, but so far nothing has helped. IN the tank was .25 ppm, when I added PRIMEd water, the ammonia was .5 ppm. Now lets say it isnt the ammonia. Our water is pretty hard, but we have just switched to the softener. I have yet to set up a spawn as I am acclimating the jarred breeders to the lower pH/gH/kH. Once they are acclimated, then I will set up spawns and see if maybe the water was just too hard. I haven't tested the aforementioned H's, so I can't post what they are ((I will do that after I get home)). I spawn in a 5g tank, so I have to start adding water at about 10days freeswimming, and I SLOW drip into the tank. Any idea what else it could be? I am at a total loss as to why they start dying off at the same time I start adding water? I don't do daily testing for ammonia, but all breeders seem to think it is the new water I am adding. Anything you need me to do to test ANY new theories? I got a new pair of solid black PK that I just lost the over 200 fry within 2 or 3 days of adding the water.  Glad to be back too Carl  . For some reason the site wouldn't let me in. Kept telling me the site was no more. I also have trouble seeing the text with the colors here, everything blends together . |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 21, 2015 13:08:55 GMT -5
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 21, 2015 13:10:31 GMT -5
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Post by Carl on Jul 21, 2015 13:38:17 GMT -5
Lori; I pretty much agree with everything Devon stated. The Master Test Kits test for all ammonia, so your toxic ammonia levels may not be the same. Better is the Ammonia Alert by SeaChem More about Test Kits: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/02/aquarium-test-kits.htmlThe soft water can definitely be the issue, it can seriously affect fish osmoregulation and even drive out essential mineral ions. The article I referred to earlier addresses the use of softwater use too, from this section: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.html#softenerAs well my "Aquarium Chemistry" article addresses this issue too: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.htmlQuote from the above article: "Do NOT make the mistake with a freshwater aquarium of using home softener water or products that replace calcium/magnesium ions with sodium ions (example API Water Softening Pillows), as this is creates water totally out of balance with essential electrolytes.
The salt used produces water vastly too high in sodium and this high sodium water will precipitate out ALL ESSENTIAL positive calcium ions.
Adding these minerals back in via Replenish, Wonder Shells, Oolitic sands, etc. will not correct this long term at all as these minerals will continue to be precipitated out by the softened water."ProBoards stated our forum board was compromised the other day & deleted, so no one could access the forum until they restored it. I will look into the background color, but this has not been changed since you and others helped set it up  Carl |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jul 22, 2015 14:39:03 GMT -5
we JUST got the softener ("Clean Water System") like 2 weeks ago. I lost the last spawn before it got installed, so it is NOT the issue. For years, I've only had 10 or less fry live out of 200. The most I have ever had live was 20. Most breeders have 100+ fry every spawn.
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jul 22, 2015 14:40:50 GMT -5
And yes, my test kit does both. I am looking at the links "now"...after I hit send |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 22, 2015 17:20:12 GMT -5
Great about the softener.
Do you use minerals. How about a sponge in the fry tank. Our fry love love love the sponge. I would think these two would help with better numbers. Also consent parameters, temp, pH.
Don't know why the low numbers... These are my best guesses. Could be genetics?
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Post by Carl on Jul 22, 2015 17:37:41 GMT -5
we JUST got the softener ("Clean Water System") like 2 weeks ago. I lost the last spawn before it got installed, so it is NOT the issue. For years, I've only had 10 or less fry live out of 200. The most I have ever had live was 20. Most breeders have 100+ fry every spawn. Still make sure to not use this system for water changes, as it will be detrimental to all fish, adult too. I think Devon makes a good point, a Sponge Filter running in the fry tank. How big is this tank/container, is this the 32 gallon container? Fry of any fish are going to be more sensitive to water conditions, including lack of electrolytes as Devon noted. The seeded sponge filters can help maintain stability to your nitrogen cycle. A friend in Los Angeles had a pretty large Betta and Discus operation where he kept water ready for water changes in large overhead vats that then dripped constantly though the fry tanks via gravity. He conditioned the water with Indian Almond Leaves or Pillow Moss, and kept minerals in this water for a constant mineral Cation supply (I prefer the Wonder Shells for this) as the water slowly dripped through the smaller grow out tanks. He also had a UV Sterilizer running too. I definitely recommend the SeaChem Ammonia Alert of the API ammonia and master tests for accurate measurement of critical NH3 Some product Resources: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/FrogMoss.htmlwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.htmlwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquariumtestkit.html#alertwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/UVSterilizers.htmlCarl |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jul 23, 2015 9:31:49 GMT -5
Great about the softener. Do you use minerals. How about a sponge in the fry tank. Our fry love love love the sponge. I would think these two would help with better numbers. Also consent parameters, temp, pH. Don't know why the low numbers... These are my best guesses. Could be genetics? No, I have never used minerals in my tanks. When we demo the water system, the "hardness" of our water was 9/10, which the lady said that was the highest reading she had ever had. The last time I tested my gH/kH, ((I forget which was which)), but one was like 10-12 drops and the other was close to 20 before it changed colors. I can't find my test kit, so I need to get another one ASAP to find out where it is now. I was VERY concerned about the system removing all the minerals, and was assured it didn't remove all, and that the salt was minimum. The installers have had fish in the past, and I again expressed my concerns. They said it would be fine for the fish, but the also showed me how to bypass the system for just straight tap. ((sorry...I think I am going over part of Carl's post that I read...lol)). I am "scared" of seasoned filters due to the spread of Mycos a few yrs ago in my fish room. I do have a shrimp tank that I am using to season my sponges between "nuking" and spawning. I also use sponge mops for the beneficial bacteria, but usually those are sterile going into the tank :/ This recent tank, I don't think I did. I had a small portion of Java Moss in there, and as soon as I removed dad, I put a large handful of Lesser Duckweed in the tank. This same pair just spawned...like yesterday (7-22-15)about 3:30 pm. What I have in the tank (5 gallon 1/2 full). IAL water, seasoned sponge and mop from a pair that I bred (3rd generation), so I'm not as "scared", no plants. I have to remove Mom today, and I will test the water after I do this. I don't get on the internet when I get home, so I will not be able to update until tomorrow when I get to work. Lori |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jul 23, 2015 10:00:45 GMT -5
Just ordered the NH3 test kit and extra sponge filters Carl |
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Post by Carl on Jul 23, 2015 10:52:38 GMT -5
No, I have never used minerals in my tanks. When we demo the water system, the "hardness" of our water was 9/10, which the lady said that was the highest reading she had ever had. The last time I tested my gH/kH, ((I forget which was which)), but one was like 10-12 drops and the other was close to 20 before it changed colors. I can't find my test kit, so I need to get another one ASAP to find out where it is now. I was VERY concerned about the system removing all the minerals, and was assured it didn't remove all, and that the salt was minimum. The installers have had fish in the past, and I again expressed my concerns. They said it would be fine for the fish, but the also showed me how to bypass the system for just straight tap. ((sorry...I think I am going over part of Carl's post that I read...lol)). Lori, I would have to respectfully disagree with the lady inferring that 10 dGH is high, even 20, while on the higher side, is still well within the safe limits of GH. This is an area of fish chemistry I done a lot of work, including with bettas, and while one can have a high GH, this does not necessarily mean you have the mineral Cations present. From my Aquarium Chemistry Article, GH Section: "It is also noteworthy that a GH test is not always an accurate measure of positive calcium and other mineral ions (cations), as with many Ammonia test kits, which are inaccurate after using products such as Prime and give false positive for ammonia NH3 as they cannot discern the difference between the NH3 and NH4+.
The same can be said for GH tests that may show a high GH when in reality all positive calcium ions are depleted due to Redox balancing, which is why one MUST constantly supply these mineral cations by whatever means, whether by regular water changes (which often are not enough, especially in small aquariums) or by use of mineral replenishers such as Wonder Shells (which will throw off accurate readings of GH test kits due to their constant supply of positive mineral ions such as calcium!!!).
Examples of GH and Important mineral Ions in an Aquarium/Pond:
Depletion of Positive Ions
Think of it this way; a storage battery "works" only when a positive and a negative electrode are present to maintain an electrical current.
When the positive ion charged plates become exhausted, the battery is no longer any good until recharged.
In a lead/acid batteries essentially lead (Pb) and lead oxide (PbO2) are changed to lead(II) sulfate (PbSO) in the discharged state (exhausted positive ions), HOWEVER the lead is still present (as with calcium in an aquarium) in a discharged state.
Water changes and additional supplements are generally necessary to replenish these mineral ions (cations). Using the car battery as an example again, when re-charging, a 12 volt battery will show a charge of up to 14 volts in a 12 volt battery shortly after and at the completion of a charge, this is similar to the high GH (often over 400) with the use of many methods of adding mineral electrolytes such as Wonder Shells.Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#ghAnother Recommended Reading: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlI found when compiling statistics in some of my tests, that fish of many habitats had less disease incidences and higher longevity when the mineral Cations were maintained. Thank You! Carl |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 23, 2015 11:02:01 GMT -5
The positive mineral cations are so important in mineral supplements, especially for breeding. That GH is not to high, but even still a higher GH is worth the cations you need. Is you use just a small amount regularly, that will do. I don't think it will suddenly solve all the problems, but will give much better chances.
Carl did a lot of testing around this, so I will consider his advice.
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Amy T
Junior Member
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Post by Amy T on Jul 23, 2015 14:45:07 GMT -5
Hi Lori!
I had a rainbow shark with severe fin rot. He had only half of his dorsal fin, half of one pectoral fin and only the spine of the other pectoral fin, and had absolutely no pelvic or anal fins left. You get the picture: this fish barely had any fins. I used Melafix twice/day for a week with no improvement. Two weeks later after no changes in fin growth I started Melafix a.m./Pimafix p.m. for about 3 weeks and the fins improved slightly. About a week after the second treatment my Wonder Shells finally arrived in the mail. I put one in the tank and within 3 weeks the fins were completely regrown. It was amazing. I never would have dreamed it possible. In addition, my snails have grown about an inch of new shell. The Wonder Shells are an absolute success in the health of my fish. I would highly recommend them.
Please feel free to use this as a testimonial, Carl:)
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Post by Carl on Jul 24, 2015 9:51:43 GMT -5
Please feel free to use this as a testimonial, Carl:) Thanks, I will! I have literally 1000s of my own applications and experiments to back up what you stated, unfortunately there is a lot of miss-information that often confuses persons Carl |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jul 24, 2015 11:17:23 GMT -5
Hi Lori! I had a rainbow shark with severe fin rot. He had only half of his dorsal fin, half of one pectoral fin and only the spine of the other pectoral fin, and had absolutely no pelvic or anal fins left. You get the picture: this fish barely had any fins. I used Melafix twice/day for a week with no improvement. Two weeks later after no changes in fin growth I started Melafix a.m./Pimafix p.m. for about 3 weeks and the fins improved slightly. About a week after the second treatment my Wonder Shells finally arrived in the mail. I put one in the tank and within 3 weeks the fins were completely regrown. It was amazing. I never would have dreamed it possible. In addition, my snails have grown about an inch of new shell. The Wonder Shells are an absolute success in the health of my fish. I would highly recommend them. Please feel free to use this as a testimonial, Carl:) I do have and have used the Wondershell. It has not helped me to not loose the babies. My main goal here is to keep more than 10 (if I'm lucky to get THAT many) fry alive. Again, I can bypass the unit for the fish, not a problem. I will say that I am the worst at testing my water... This spawn, I will try and test every afternoon when I get home. Carl, I have 4 spawn tanks (5g)...is there a liquid that tests for the NH3 and 4 separately? I'd have to get 5+ of those testers for each tank...and the tanks only stay set up for maybe a month before it is tore down and reset. If the spawn is a no go after a week, it is reset. I'd have to have one for every breeding pair...and would they be accurate by removing them and having them set dry for several weeks before they are used again? I doubt they can be sterilized. Readings last night for NH4/NH3: Spawn tank (still eggs): .25ppm Fresh Water holding tank: .25ppm I have fry this morning. They will be free-swimming in about 2 to 3 days. I will test again tonight. ((off note: I was lazy and didn't clean either of the test tubes out and this morning both were yellow and not that light green...interesting???)) Lori |
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Post by Carl on Jul 24, 2015 12:24:49 GMT -5
Readings of .25 ppm ammonia, even if NH3 is not a problem.
You can sterilize the test tubes with a mild water/bleach solution, then rinse several times.
The Ammonia Alert can be moved around, but it cannot be sterilized, so if worried about disease transfer, these are best used in each container.
As for losses of spawn, I am at a loss of an exact reason, but I can say is that sometimes it is a cumulative effect of multiple minor issues as I address in my Disease Prevention Article.
Consider these (all of which by themselves may not be an issue, but combined would be much more of a problem):
*Change in pH when transferred (much more than .5 can be very hard on weak fish in particular)
*I still believe maintaining positive mineral Cations is important, whether via a Wonder Shell or some other method (often water changes can help if the water is ionically balanced), but again make sure to avoid pH change and subsequent shock).
Also consider this as per Redox Balance whereby positively charged water is constantly added as per my friends breeding operation.
*Temperature changes
*Genetics
*Low light in the first few days
*Pathogens in the water
*Make sure no chlorine or chloramines are present
Carl
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Post by angelminx on Jul 25, 2015 4:07:29 GMT -5
Two questions...
1) I have trouble understanding the Redox thing...without the expensive meters or whatever, how do you tell if your water is positively charged?
2) (as I've mentioned previously) I have never had this problem before, but for the past few weeks, in my 10G aquarium I am getting constant ammonia readings with both the liquid test (which has always been "0" before) and the Ammonia Alert [while in the 55G the liquid tests remain at 0, or a fraction over--the color's hard to tell]. I just received my new Ammonia Alert about a week ago and placed it into the 10G, and it has been reading "green" (occasionally with a slightly yellow tint to it) while the API test has generally varied from 0.5 - 1 ppm [the Ammonia Alert in the 55G is usually hard to distinguish the actual color--especially when the tank lights are on and it is back-lit and looks more yellow--but seems to read somewhere between yellow and green, despite the fact that the API test says that there isn't "any" ammonia.] The 2 original Ammonia Alerts were only about a month or so apart in age (with the oldest having been placed in the 55G tank last August--I'm ordering a new one for the 55 with my next order), and both were showing the exact same shade of "greenish-yellow" before I replaced the one in the 10G. What worries me is that the ammonia has stayed up for so long, and noting seems to bring it down. Do the (~15%) daily water changes (from the holding container, with no ammonia readings--tho the tap water read 1 ppm at the last reading), combined with the daily doses of ParaGuard have anything to do with it? I would think not, but I can't come up with any other ideas. Monday is the last day of treatment with the ParaGuard...should I still add the medicated wonder shell when it's thru (there is a regular one in there right now)?
Thanks
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Post by Carl on Jul 25, 2015 10:30:04 GMT -5
Redox can be tested in a very generalized sense via Methylene Blue. From the Redox Article: "Taking this test a step further into the real world; again add enough Methylene Blue 8 oz. of water to turn the water a brilliant blue (again one drop), this will be the control color. Then take out 8 oz. of aquarium water and add the same amount of Methylene Blue as in the control glass of water.
If the color dissipates at all (even the slightest) you probably have a balanced Redox with at least some reduction. Expect to see little color change in a healthy aquarium, although absolutely no color change MAY indicate too much oxidation, while any more than a subtle change may indicate too much reduction."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlAs for the second question, I am not totally sure of your question or where there is a problem as you are citing numbers via the API test that is low while not perfect, but seems to also be explained if I read your post correctly as somewhat induced by the introduction of tap water with ammonia there in. As well the APU test is a generalized one since it measure both non toxic ammonium and toxic ammonia. Your Ammonia alert seems to be indicating no problem. ParaGuard if used correctly should not cause and issue that raises ammonia levels. Keep in mind too that anything that lowers pH will convert NH3 to NH4. Carl |
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. For some reason the site wouldn't let me in. Kept telling me the site was no more. I also have trouble seeing the text with the colors here, everything blends together 
