clayn
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Post by clayn on Dec 24, 2014 23:46:49 GMT -5
Due to my failing memory I posted the incorrect extrapolated energy number and the incorrect corrected number. These errors have been fixed.
If you are checking your Paradigm food you will notice that the starch is 1% higher than the 30 limit. This is due to resistant starch that does not get digested. I will write more on it later.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 15:53:19 GMT -5
Greetings All,
This seems like a fun place to put this post. Neon Tetras are not fish food.... or at least they are not supposed to be in a home aquarium.
I bought my son a package of the Aqua Master Mini fish food (available through AAP) to put in the pets' Christmas stocking. He gave it back to me.....as.....he doesn't have any more neon tetras (although he does still have his peacock gudgeons -- good thing). His naughty angelfish ate them! I have three much larger angels and they don't eat the tetras......or do they? I do have a smaller school of them than I used to. Maybe I wrongly accused the cat fish? (this is a smaller feather-fin than what is in my 75 gallon) I am well aware that angelfish in the wild eat neon tetras. I better keep my three lady angels happy (they do often beg for freeze-dried blood worms).
Clay, if you read this. I have enjoyed your posts.... I plan to feed my huge featherfin catfish some chocolate now to see if she will explode-- JUST kidding. She has actually calmed down since all of this talk about exiling her. Knock on wood.... I actually do prefer to keep her.
Cheers,
Judy
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Dec 26, 2014 0:05:08 GMT -5
Greetings All, This seems like a fun place to put this post. Neon Tetras are not fish food.... or at least they are not supposed to be in a home aquarium. I bought my son a package of the Aqua Master Mini fish food (available through AAP) to put in the pets' Christmas stocking. He gave it back to me.....as.....he doesn't have any more neon tetras (although he does still have his peacock gudgeons -- good thing). His naughty angelfish ate them! I have three much larger angels and they don't eat the tetras......or do they? I do have a smaller school of them than I used to. Maybe I wrongly accused the cat fish? (this is a smaller feather-fin than what is in my 75 gallon) I am well aware that angelfish in the wild eat neon tetras. I better keep my three lady angels happy (they do often beg for freeze-dried blood worms). Clay, if you read this. I have enjoyed your posts.... I plan to feed my huge featherfin catfish some chocolate now to see if she will explode-- JUST kidding. She has actually calmed down since all of this talk about exiling her. Knock on wood.... I actually do prefer to keep her. Cheers, Judy Judy, I am glad that you have enjoyed my rambling. My money is on the Angelfish although catfish will eat anything that they can fit in their mouth if they can catch it. Regards, Clay
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 0:24:55 GMT -5
Hi Clay,
I am a bit of a rambler myself... Bet you didn't guess that (chuckles).
My lady cat (the HUGE one in the 75 gallon) slashed another tiger barb sometime today. I am giving her the benefit of the doubt. It might have been an accident as this little barb was hanging around her territory. She could have accidentally caught his side (damage isn't too bad). Tomorrow I will net the little boy and put Bio Bandage on him... I will move him to the 10 gallon upstairs.
By the way.... I did look into making an Avatar. There isn't an appropriate hair style for me. I did play with the sexy long side-swept hair style - but not too sexy looking in gray (giggles). Also, not quite the right face shape (the one I picked looked too manly).... I got frustrated so gave me the shark tooth mouth - Grrrr. What a riot?! I didn't save it though. I never got as far to see what style of glasses they had. I have clear framed glasses.
Don't know when I will need more food now (still have some of my "AAP Wish List").... I called Cobalt foods a week or so ago. My new canister of Color Flakes didn't have many blue flakes (looked to be all "salmon" color).....They sent me a FREE huge canister of Color Flakes. Cobalt may not be the best food....but my fish like it....and my Featherfin is the only one that is too fat. The fish also get frozen Brine Spirulina....and Spirulina flakes.
Cheers,
Judy
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Dec 26, 2014 2:16:55 GMT -5
Judy,
Go with the avatar that fits your personality best. Mine looks much younger than I am.
Don't worry about the food. If I had some on hand I would have already offered to send you some samples. I make a point of not speaking to the quality of others foods. I had much rather educate (not brainwash) people and let them make an informed decision on what they feed. Most find the biology of fish to be rather boring. I am glad that you and quite a few others here are interested in our studies and conclusions.
Regards, Clay
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2014 9:12:41 GMT -5
Hi Clay,
Then I will picture a little more "Doc Brown" when I see your Avatar (Are you a "Back to the Future" fan?). I joked with Carl a while back that I only have a right brain -- no left brain.... But actually biology was my favorite science. My first "official" science experiment - that I did in 7th grade was with a Betta fish and a fancy guppy. The experiment was to see if behavior could be learned (or Does a Betta have a brain?)- I am sure I came up with a scientific sounding title (with the help of my Dad).
I had a divided breeder tank. The Betta on one side -- and the Guppy on the other. I had the plastic divider and an opaque divider. You can figure out now what the experiment was. The Fish Gods must have been smiling as there is no way now I would EVER try this. I have no idea how I kept that guppy alive now without a filter and heater (but that guppy lived long after the experiment was over -- and so did the Betta (We bought a bigger bowl for it). Those were the only fish I had as a kid. As you can guess, the guppy was the first one to die. What water did I use? We had WELL WATER!! (best tasting well water around) Hot water came from the water softener. I must have set water out to get room temperature.
My science teacher actually suggested the Guppy/Betta experiment...BUT I added my own part to it. I inserted a mirror to see/document that behavior (how long would it take for the Betta to realize the other fish was his reflection?).
My science teacher was very pleased with my experiment -- but if he knew anything about fish keeping, he would have been more impressed with how long that guppy stayed alive -- grin. The guppy did die first.
Wow...Trips down memory lane can be so much fun...I have a very clear picture of that kitchen, house, my Dad....The Betta fish was blue......
I won't "bug" you guys and tell you all about my science project that year....pun intended....It was on Beetles (I had quite a large bug collection -- but more beetles than any other insects -- so beetles it was).
Hmmmm.... an idea.... One of these days, I will draw my own Avatar, and upload that.
Cheers!
Judy
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Post by Carl on Dec 26, 2014 10:48:04 GMT -5
Due to my failing memory I posted the incorrect extrapolated energy number and the incorrect corrected number. These errors have been fixed. If you are checking your Paradigm food you will notice that the starch is 1% higher than the 30 limit. This is due to resistant starch that does not get digested. I will write more on it later. Thanks for pointing this out. This said, your information has really helped expand our knowledge base. I know we often get into discussions treating disease here at EA, however the thrust of my years of research and testing has been prevention; whether it be via filters, chemistry, even lighting, and of course fish nutrition. I know some of my earliest feeding tests going back to 1978 showed notably better results over the popular food of the time (TetraMin). But your research has shown I could have done better yet Carl
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Dec 27, 2014 1:29:12 GMT -5
Due to my failing memory I posted the incorrect extrapolated energy number and the incorrect corrected number. These errors have been fixed. If you are checking your Paradigm food you will notice that the starch is 1% higher than the 30 limit. This is due to resistant starch that does not get digested. I will write more on it later. Thanks for pointing this out. This said, your information has really helped expand our knowledge base. I know we often get into discussions treating disease here at EA, however the thrust of my years of research and testing has been prevention; whether it be via filters, chemistry, even lighting, and of course fish nutrition. I know some of my earliest feeding tests going back to 1978 showed notably better results over the popular food of the time (TetraMin). But your research has shown I could have done better yet Carl At the time you might not have been able to do better. When commercial fish food first came on the market it was mostly starch. Fortunately fish food has come a long way since then. Paradigm is our best effort after five years of study and testing. I am continually thinking and playing with formulas in an effort to improve it further. Today I have been studying probiotics vs. prebiotics. I will have a blog up on that subject soon. The key in moving forward for extruded (cooked) fish food is limiting the starch binding ingredient to 15% while not increasing the protein and fat beyond acceptable levels. Example15% Starch will hold the food together 6.5% Fat yields almost 15 points of energy So with those two ingredients the energy is right at 30. That's my limit. Remember it all has to add up to 100. Lets assume: 10% moisture since that is the highest number acceptable that will not grow mold. 50% protein which to me is about the right level for a carnivore 8.5% minerals or ash 10% fiber There are a few problems. 50% protein is too high for omnivores and herbivores. Omnivores ideally should be in the low forties and herbivores in the mid thirties. Believe me when I say that I have tried to get our herbivore to 35% without compromising other aspects of the food. Study's on farm grown cichlids have shown that protein percentages above 40% does not improve the growth rate for herbivores. With that being said more studies need to be done to make sure that 38% isn't too high for herbivores. I will see if I can get a quick study done soon and report our findings. I am my own worst critic. Wheat flour and other processed grains commonly used don't contain much fiber. Fiber would have to be added to the food. So why hasn't someone done this? Cost Quality protein like whole fish meal, shrimp meal and spirulina are much more costly than wheat flour or soy meal. Whole ground grains are more expensive than processed grains. Whole ground green pea flour is seven times more expensive than wheat flour. Green pea flour has a good mix of starch, fiber, sugar and protein that's amino acid profile is completed by our use of whole menhaden meal and shrimp meal. The amino acid lysine is added to most foods using wheat flour as a binder. Soy meal does have a complete amino acid profile but it has too much of the wrong type of fat for my liking. Sadly if you read my blog on How to Read a Fish Food Label you will find that a lot of foods contain excessive starch. My I do ramble.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2014 8:09:24 GMT -5
Hi Clay,
I read your two articles this morning...Good read.
My huge featherfin catfish (Synodontis Eupterus)has chosen my driftwood as her fiber source (she won't eat veggie rounds anymore. If she picks one up, she spits it right back out...so she has a diet of wood and carnivore pellets). I wish I had before and after pictures -- What it looked like in 2010 before I got her -- and now (as she grew she had to make the hole where she rested bigger -- now it isn't a hole at all as the other pieces are gone). I accidentally bumped it and there is just a thin piece connecting what remains of the top to the bottom. I have two small pieces that broke away in my ten gallon. It used to be a very cool hollow log (up-right - mounted to a slate base). I haven't been able to find any piece I like to replace it. A local store now has their driftwood marked way down. I will just buy one of those until I see the perfect piece. I will try to keep some of the original wood, too.
Now that I have another little carnivore (little now - but can grow to nine inches), in time, I will try some of the carnivore food, too. I also have a featherfin in my 20 extra high (she is really too big for that tank right now -- the plan is to move her to the 75 gallon when the HUGE one is exiled or "gone").
Now THIS is what rambling is -- Your information is useful (grin).
Cheers,
Judy
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Dec 27, 2014 15:52:22 GMT -5
Hi Judy,
Every time you write Featherfin it makes me smile. I am very fond of the Cyathopharynx Foai/Furcifer species that live in Lake Tanganyika. I have kept several different geographical variants over the years may favorite being the Karilani Copper variant. I have also kept a few geographical variants of Opthalmotilapia Ventralis (I call these the psychopaths of the featherfin world). So as far as fish goes I speak primarily african cichlid (rift lake dialect).
My question regarding your catfish is does it know that it needs fiber in its diet or does it gnaw on wood simply because that is simply part of what they do?
Regards, Clay
The first paragraph was pure rambling!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2014 17:52:38 GMT -5
Hi Clay,
I write featherfin as I have to look up the spelling of Synodontis Eupterus (her name used to be Madafo-- but I changed it to Dawn just the other day. I named her Madafo long before I knew she was a she). I will ask her tonight why she eats wood and will let you know what she says (laugh out loud). She will be mad when I replace the wood as it wont be with the same kind/variety. It also may not have edges she can wrap her mouth around to gnaw on. We shall see.....Of course, maybe I am worried about her "tastes" for nothing. If she starts to act up again, she is going on a road trip. I really can't leave her at a local store for if she isn't cared for properly, I would end up buying her back (chuckles). She needs to go to a store where I won't see her. I don't get up to the Findlay store much.
And.... It is the first paragraph you wrote that I like the best! I ramble just to drive you guys nuts. Is it working?
Judy
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Post by Carl on Dec 28, 2014 14:38:40 GMT -5
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Dec 28, 2014 17:38:17 GMT -5
Thank You Carl!
Can someone please explain the +1'd thing on the blog?
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Post by Carl on Dec 28, 2014 18:34:58 GMT -5
Thank You Carl! Can someone please explain the +1'd thing on the blog? That is for Google +, which is kinda Google's version of Facebook and is also tied to YouTube. Each +1 equals a like or share on Google Plus which raises visibility too As of this EA post, the Spirulina article already has 4 likes Carl
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Dec 28, 2014 21:13:45 GMT -5
I am sure that you can see my problem with food for herbivores. People want to see spirulina high on the ingredient list. So how do you make a 35% protein food using a high percentage of 57% protein spirulina?? Need to get some protein reagent and do some testing to make sure that 38% protein is not excessive. I was shocked that carnivores can use up to 20% starch. Survival mechanism maybe??
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Post by Carl on Dec 29, 2014 10:08:52 GMT -5
I am sure that you can see my problem with food for herbivores. People want to see spirulina high on the ingredient list. So how do you make a 35% protein food using a high percentage of 57% protein spirulina?? Need to get some protein reagent and do some testing to make sure that 38% protein is not excessive. I was shocked that carnivores can use up to 20% starch. Survival mechanism maybe?? Using your method of " How to Read a Fish Food Label & Energy (Fat, Starch and Sugar)", I would extrapolate that much of it is starch, since I have noticed that food meant for Herbivores that have Spirulina high in the list appear to have 40% plus in starch, yet proteins of 35% Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Dec 29, 2014 14:03:48 GMT -5
I just keep learning from your work Clayn. Thank you for sharing and making the blogs for the forums. They are priceless. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge.
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Dec 29, 2014 15:09:08 GMT -5
Thank you for the kind words Devon! In my opinion this website is by far the best source for aquatic information on the web. I am honored to contribute a little to what is already a lot of good information. I know the subject has been thoroughly covered but many if not most continue overfeeding their fish. I don't know what I could say that hasn't been said 1000 times before. I am fleshing out another blog or two in my mind. If Stephanie ever returns from her vacation I think that she can get what we call Stephanie's Army to come over and check out the blogs and hopefully hang around and look at all the other goodies EA has to offer.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Dec 31, 2014 14:45:18 GMT -5
Thank you for the kind words Devon! In my opinion this website is by far the best source for aquatic information on the web. I am honored to contribute a little to what is already a lot of good information. I know the subject has been thoroughly covered but many if not most continue overfeeding their fish. I don't know what I could say that hasn't been said 1000 times before. I am fleshing out another blog or two in my mind. If Stephanie ever returns from her vacation I think that she can get what we call Stephanie's Army to come over and check out the blogs and hopefully hang around and look at all the other goodies EA has to offer. The more we can add to the group, the better! There's a great bunch here already and we have so many who just come in a look around, but don't interact. That's great. We are just trying to make a great forum, based on great information we have. What you know is now included! We do have a great direction here for the forum. It would be interesting to get your take on how much to feed. I do a good amount for my 20 fish in the 40 gal, but do it once or twice a day. I mix what I'm feeding between Paradigm, Spirulina, and worm/shrimp. They look well feed, but not over feed. Anyway, thanks for being a part. Feel free to use your sponsored board however you see fit!
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Jan 2, 2015 15:26:02 GMT -5
Devon or Carl....Would you be so kind as to add a new thread in the Paradigm Sponsor section with direct links to the articles that I have written so far?
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