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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 13:38:42 GMT -5
I'm considering trying a simple Hydro sponge filter on my betta tanks, possibly on larger community tank also. Carl, if you see this... I recently posted this pic of a filter I have and you commented that you're not a fan of this one. I appreciate you feel the flow is reduced with the top opening of the hydro filter set up, but is there more to it? ( you called it a 'tetra', so perhaps you have inside info that this is made by the same maker? But to be clear, mine is an Elite, which is just a product line of HAGEN's). I also have these as pre-filters on the HOB's. I have read yours and other info on hydro sponges, but really didn't see any detail on what exactly makes this sponge superior to others as a home for nitrifying bacteria. Is there a difference in the construction of the inside of the sponge? Sell me!  In switching from an HOB loaded with foam, matrix, sometimes ammo-chips/carbon, and poly pad etc which won't be in use if the HOB goes (except for perhaps a bit of matrix in-tank)... Is it really the case that the hydro sponge alone can out perform all this as the tank's whole filtration system? In other words, would you consider this a superior approach to using one as a pre-filter on a loaded HOB?
Thanks so much, Maggie Elite filter pictured below: Attachments:
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 1, 2014 18:01:05 GMT -5
I have not personally used the brand of sponge you have, but I will comment on what I do know. First, there is a difference from Hydro Sponge and a Filter Max on a HOB. Just the nature of the two are different. I think you know this? Cause you have used both... Besides how they affect the water movement and water tension breaking, the HS have finer sponges. To me it looks like your Elite. You can upgrade to a "pro" sponge, which is more course and DOES hold more debris in the filter, which means more 'good' bacteria load. All of the FM sponges are this "pro" style sponge, which is more course. So I don't know the difference between HS and the Elite, but I do know the difference between a HS and FM. If it were me, I would determine the flow of water and amount of tension breaking you are after and this would determine a what kind of sponge you would want, HS or FM. There is more current allowed through the FM, because the larger coarseness of the sponge. HS is more soft water movement, but more of tension breaking. A video I did a while back about flow (powerhead vs air pump) Maybe it will give you more of an idea of if you want to go with HOB or HS www.youtube.com/watch?v=O55oYtDZucE&list=UUtzmM2fkoRY7Ay5kSqowaugA HS can outperform a HOB to answer your question... Which brand of sponge you want to use is up to you. If you wanted to get fancy, you could use both. It's always better to have multiple forms of filtration if you can swing it.  |
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Post by Carl on Oct 1, 2014 18:28:51 GMT -5
I will quote from the Sponge Filtration article as it explains it reasonably well: As a bio filter, most premium sponge filters (such as our Premium Hydro Sponge Filter) are vastly superior to Under Gravel Filters as per extensive controlled tests performed by us in the 1990s.
This is due to the very porous nature of a sponge filter that allows for extensive colonization of nitrifying bacteria, assuming your aquarium or pond is adequately circulated.
Please note that many "knock off" sponge filters made by a variety of brands (such as Lees, Tetra, Hagen, SF-XY, AquaTop) are NOT made of the same patented sponge material as ATI's patented Hydro sponges and thus do not perform nitrification at the same level, as my tests confirmed in the 1990s, often by a LARGE margin (due to much more porous design that does not collapse on itself as readily as other designs). These lower end sponge filters also degrade much quicker, as many users can attest to.
The bottom line is there is a reason for the patent and why ATI is constantly legally battling these knock offs for patent infringement when they try to improve."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/sponge_filtration.htmlMore could certainly be added, & might just do so at the bottom of the article, as I have so much history with these ATI versus Hagen, Tetra, AquaTop and others. However it is not the intention of the article to make a hard sell of certain products, rather to explain the benefits of certain products over others where applicable and hope that others might appreciate this and reward the 1000s of hours of work that goes into these articles with an occasional sale. However as sales decline while hits to our articles increase, this is becoming less and less the way of the world. In fact since we sell a few items on eBay too, in part to statistically see where readers go, I have found that persons have gone to our site to then purchase on eBay, often for a higher price too??? Either way, someday if this trend continues, I likely will simply close up shop and remove the articles and retire  Carl |
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Post by angelminx on Oct 1, 2014 18:35:17 GMT -5
Please don't do that, we need you!!!
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Post by Carl on Oct 2, 2014 9:21:48 GMT -5
Please don't do that, we need you!!! Unfortunately, this may not even be my decision. Recently the city forced us to move to a location that is a $700 increase in monthly expenses, as well we have staff to pay, of which 75% of the time is spent in customer service, picture updates, research, with only 25% of time spent filling orders. IMO, we live in a society where an increasing number of persons think others time is free, and the Internet is even worse. For this reason we have placed this banner and notice on our many articles:  Remember, it is your purchases here (both small & large) that keeps these world class information articles free.
Purchasing elsewhere such as Amazon will only result in this free information going away someday!!On a positive note, we are still hanging in there (in part by adding new business ventures), but we really need to increase staff so that I can pull back for medical reasons, but this is not possible Carl |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 11:52:35 GMT -5
I have not personally used the brand of sponge you have, but I will comment on what I do know. First, there is a difference from Hydro Sponge and a Filter Max on a HOB. Just the nature of the two are different. I think you know this? Cause you have used both... No, actually I've not used either.
Besides how they affect the water movement and water tension breaking, the HS have finer sponges. To me it looks like your Elite. You can upgrade to a "pro" sponge, which is more course and DOES hold more debris in the filter, which means more 'good' bacteria load. All of the FM sponges are this "pro" style sponge, which is more course. So I don't know the difference between HS and the Elite, but I do know the difference between a HS and FM. If it were me, I would determine the flow of water and amount of tension breaking you are after and this would determine a what kind of sponge you would want, HS or FM. There is more current allowed through the FM, because the larger coarseness of the sponge. HS is more soft water movement, but more of tension breaking. 2 different uses.
1) as stand-alone filter in betta tanks
2) pre-filter on HOB- betta and community tank
A video I did a while back about flow (powerhead vs air pump) Maybe it will give you more of an idea of if you want to go with HOB or HS www.youtube.com/watch?v=O55oYtDZucE&list=UUtzmM2fkoRY7Ay5kSqowaugGreat illustration Devon, thanks! Looks like a lot of water movement across the whole surface area + water tension breaking. I know the power can be turned down, but still...
I had mine set to release water just under the surface along one wall, so it didn't affect the whole area of the tank + did not break the surface.
What's best for a betta tank?
A HS can outperform a HOB to answer your question... Which brand of sponge you want to use is up to you. Yes, ok.. I'd thought when I looked into this topic in the past I saw details provided on the inner construction and how much surface area the different designs provide for bacteria etc.. to help compare.. but not seeing this time
If you wanted to get fancy, you could use both. It's always better to have multiple forms of filtration if you can swing it. Once I get to life beyond 10 gallon tanks
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 12:16:53 GMT -5
I will quote from the Sponge Filtration article as it explains it reasonably well: As a bio filter, most premium sponge filters (such as our Premium Hydro Sponge Filter) are vastly superior to Under Gravel Filters as per extensive controlled tests performed by us in the 1990s.
This is due to the very porous nature of a sponge filter that allows for extensive colonization of nitrifying bacteria, assuming your aquarium or pond is adequately circulated.
Please note that many "knock off" sponge filters made by a variety of brands (such as Lees, Tetra, Hagen, SF-XY, AquaTop) are NOT made of the same patented sponge material as ATI's patented Hydro sponges and thus do not perform nitrification at the same level, as my tests confirmed in the 1990s, often by a LARGE margin (due to much more porous design that does not collapse on itself as readily as other designs). These lower end sponge filters also degrade much quicker, as many users can attest to.
The bottom line is there is a reason for the patent and why ATI is constantly legally battling these knock offs for patent infringement when they try to improve."
The fact it's a patented item does suggest some inherent quality for sure.
I HAD read this earlier, unfortunately did not know at the time that the ELITE one I have is in fact a Hagen product.
Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/sponge_filtration.htmlMore could certainly be added, & might just do so at the bottom of the article, as I have so much history with these ATI versus Hagen, Tetra, AquaTop and others. However it is not the intention of the article to make a hard sell of certain products, rather to explain the benefits of certain products over others where applicable and hope that others might appreciate this and reward the 1000s of hours of work that goes into these articles with an occasional sale. However as sales decline while hits to our articles increase, this is becoming less and less the way of the world. In fact since we sell a few items on eBay too, in part to statistically see where readers go, I have found that persons have gone to our site to then purchase on eBay, often for a higher price too??? Makes no sense.
Either way, someday if this trend continues, I likely will simply close up shop and remove the articles and retire Carl Internet has been a double-edged sword for small businesses. It expands your operating territory but fills it with new caveats.
A woman here in Canada managed to open a parrot supply store. No livestock, just supplies. Even tougher. Another niche market business and not even in a warm southern state where keeping parrots is a much larger scale and longer held hobby.. in Calgary, Canada! Then even managed to expand and open a location here in Toronto. An admirable feat.
Internet took her business from the destination location format to international online sales... awesome... however customers visit her store for the touchy-feely experience then order from the US online where large scale vendors can undercut her pricing and also apparently fudge customs paperwork to spare them the duty charges. She can't win.
(she discovered this when a US maker did her 'this favour' on a sizeable order without ever discussing. Running a business, she of course must submit receipts and duty is a legitimate expense/requirement so his not charging it was not a welcome thing!)
So this is the new face of business for many, and it's brutal for the small business owner.
I think you both need to both open funeral parlours on the side
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Post by parker002 on Oct 2, 2014 12:53:15 GMT -5
I have all kinds of sponge material from various filters and other things.
Almost all of the filter material from the "knock-offs" is coarser, similar to the ATI Filter Max sponge.
The Hydro Sponge material is indeed much different than any other I've encountered.
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Post by Carl on Oct 2, 2014 15:38:03 GMT -5
Often persons buying habits make no sense.
Persons will trust eBay more, even though we use the exact same checkout system.
Worse would be Amazon, whose business dealing are very below the board as per honesty, in fact we just recently called them out in an email they sent to us about their business dealings; they had no response
For us, we know statistically (based on installed software) that we generate 100s of sales for LFS for every sale we make online, this is especially the case for medications. This has also resulted in many copycat retailers such as Pet Mountain who use dishonest business ptactices to skirt many manufacturers MAP pricing.
LED lighting is another area where the number of sales we generate for others far out weighs what we sell
Carl
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Post by Carl on Oct 2, 2014 15:38:30 GMT -5
I have all kinds of sponge material from various filters and other things. Almost all of the filter material from the "knock-offs" is coarser, similar to the ATI Filter Max sponge. The Hydro Sponge material is indeed much different than any other I've encountered. This is indeed the point!! Carl |
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