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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2014 15:43:05 GMT -5
A number of times I've had fish (bettas) in little aquariums, but then wanting them to be in a larger one have moved them and then set about gradually increasing the water volume to fill the larger tank. Rather than just adding a little every few days and hoping for the best I thought I should ask how much and how fast is really 'okay' ?
Here's a specific example, the one I started on last night:
First tank was a 2.5g with no filtration, but gravel and matrix in-tank, and a heater.
New tank is a 5.5g and will add some small in-tank filtration once water level is up.
1) moved the fish into a vase, then moved the gravel/matrix and all remaining water minus .5g (20%, was due for a water change).
2) returned fish to new tank then added .5g new water + prime to complete the water change, then also added an extra .25g new water.
So the tank now has @ 2.75 g of water, therefore is half way to full.
I'm thinking because my tap water PH is 7.4 and gasses out to 7.8... and this tank sat @ 7.4-7.6 (@7.4 today) that I don't want to add too much at once or it will raise the PH, which is not wanted. Also, the first tank was pretty cycled, so if I add too much too fast it will be a set-back.
Are there other factors to consider? What would be a smart pace for increasing the water?
OR.. am I over thinking this one and these things aren't going to impact anything too much anyway because I'm only diluting the water now?
I appreciate all input- thanks everyone!
(also curious why PH is lower than my gassed-out tap water? What in there lowers it? (meanwhile a 10g planted tank sits @ 7.8-8.0)
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 10, 2014 9:18:54 GMT -5
I don't think there is an exact way of doing this, so just slowly and cautiously is the best. I would think about no more than about 20% at a time. That's about recommended for a water change. As for the gassing out, I think it has something to do with carbonates (KH). " Another point to pH is tap water or well water pH when drawn will often gas out (sometimes referred to as “gassing out”).
This is trapped CO2 gas in the tap water that will slowly gas out of the water if allowed to sit (also Hydrogen Sulfite can be present).
What I mean is you will get a sample of tap/well water then immediately test it and get a result such as 6.5 that can rise to 7.0 or higher over the next hour as CO2 gasses out, assuming there are carbonates (KH) in the water (even more common in well water from my experience).
This is noteworthy in testing your tap water as you will NOT get accurate tap water pH readings if you test your water immediately after drawing it from the tap, it is best to wait at least one hour. This gassing out does NOT affect GH or KH as these are minerals that remain in the water." www.americanaquariumproducts.com/aquariumkh.html#ph |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 11:23:24 GMT -5
I don't think there is an excite way of doing this, so just slowly and cautiously is the best. I would think about no more than about 20% at a time. That's about recommended for a water change. This is what I've done generally, allowing a couple days for cycling to catch up and levels to level out before adding more. I think you're right to compare it to a water change because I'd imagine the amount of change the fish would feel would be about the same. That's the main concern as this sometimes also comes into play sometimes in treating fish. Well, if there's nothing more or more scientific about it, then great, I'll carry on and thanks!
As for the gassing out, I think it has something to do with carbonates (KH). " Another point to pH is tap water or well water pH when drawn will often gas out (sometimes referred to as “gassing out”).
This is trapped CO2 gas in the tap water that will slowly gas out of the water if allowed to sit (also Hydrogen Sulfite can be present).
What I mean is you will get a sample of tap/well water then immediately test it and get a result such as 6.5 that can rise to 7.0 or higher over the next hour as CO2 gasses out, assuming there are carbonates (KH) in the water (even more common in well water from my experience).
This is noteworthy in testing your tap water as you will NOT get accurate tap water pH readings if you test your water immediately after drawing it from the tap, it is best to wait at least one hour. This gassing out does NOT affect GH or KH as these are minerals that remain
in the water." I'd say that would be bang on if I'd added tap water and tested before it had a chance to gas out. The tank (original 2.5g tank which was running 2 mths) sat @ 7.4-7.6 generally though, being 7.4 that morning before altering it. The test was taken therefore a week after the last WC, before doing the next one. (I use water straight from the tap for a WC with this tank because the PH of fresh tap is close to the tank's PH, but it would be gassed out/levelled out before any tests run).
I've not added anything to the tank to affect the PH, so am curious how it moves to have lower PH (than gassed-out tap water), versus my 10g planted where the PH sits higher, @ 7.8-8.0.
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/aquariumkh.html#phThanks Devon, I'm going to re-re-re-re-read this one.. I'm a bit stuck when it comes to the use of buffers and managing PH, KH. Maybe the answer is tucked in here and it'll click once and for all.  |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 10, 2014 17:01:56 GMT -5
I'd say that would be bang on if I'd added tap water and tested before it had a chance to gas out. The tank (original 2.5g tank which was running 2 mths) sat @ 7.4-7.6 generally though, being 7.4 that morning before altering it. The test was taken therefore a week after the last WC, before doing the next one. (I use water straight from the tap for a WC with this tank because the PH of fresh tap is close to the tank's PH, but it would be gassed out/levelled out before any tests run). Can you explain this to me again? I just want to make sure I'm following what your saying... Also, for the transition from a smaller tank to a larger tank, like I said before still stands. I just hear a suggestion that if you knew that you were going to be moving the fish, you could have water already made up sitting waiting to use. With the WS or buffers that you are using, and already gasses out. This would be less harsh for the switch. You would make the water up in something like a large trash can...and it would be the same water you use each WC and move. I've also heard of people that didn't have the time or the same water to add to a tank (someone moving a tank to a different state). They save a much water as they could, but then just used the new water and did not do a slow transition. There was no loss of any fish. So, fish are more tough than we think. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 18:07:44 GMT -5
I'd say that would be bang on if I'd added tap water and tested before it had a chance to gas out. The tank (original 2.5g tank which was running 2 mths) sat @ 7.4-7.6 generally though, being 7.4 that morning before altering it. The test was taken therefore a week after the last WC, before doing the next one. (I use water straight from the tap for a WC with this tank because the PH of fresh tap is close to the tank's PH, but it would be gassed out/levelled out before any tests run). Can you explain this to me again? I just want to make sure I'm following what your saying... I thought you were suggesting it was because I did a water change and the water (now in the tank) had not yet gassed-out, therefore leading to a lower PH reading. I'm saying that was not what I did.
The question, forgetting that whole example, is just: what would make the PH of a tank go LOWER? (my water fresh is ph 7.4 and gasses out to 7.8, yet this tank's PH is typically 7.4. Steady, not swinging. Tests are run a week AFTER a water change, not just right after, and nothing done to lower the ph at all. Have been adding moderate doses of Replenish and other levels are: GH 15/272 and KH 5/85.
Whole reason for the question is that I didn't think PH would go lower than the water added (gassed-out) unless you actively did something to lower it.
Hope that's clearer and sorry to confuse....
Also, for the transition from a smaller tank to a larger tank, like I said before still stands. I just hear a suggestion that if you knew that you were going to be moving the fish, you could have water already made up sitting waiting to use. With the WS or buffers that you are using, and already gasses out. This would be less harsh for the switch. Given the PH in the tank is 7.4 and the PH of my fresh tap water is 7.4, I figured it would be less harsh to use this for the water change/addition.. and let it gradually gas out in the tank, than to put water that has gassed out to 7.8 (And no WS or buffers involved).You would make the water up in something like a large trash can...and it would be the same water you use each WC and move. I've also heard of people that didn't have the time or the same water to add to a tank (someone moving a tank to a different state). They save a much water as they could, but then just used the new water and did not do a slow transition. There was no loss of any fish. So, fish are more tough than we think. I understand the value of using established tank water and I do have a healthy 10gal, but I opted NOT to use from that because the PH of that tank runs 7.8-8.0 |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 11, 2014 9:47:08 GMT -5
Any natural buffers in the tank? I can't remember if you use any. These lowers pH.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 11:07:02 GMT -5
Any natural buffers in the tank? I can't remember if you use any. These lowers pH. No buffers...nothing done to lower the ph at all. Have been adding moderate doses of Replenish and other levels are: GH 15/272 and KH 5/85. To be clear, the PH is not continuing to drop, it's just that it sits lower than the water used in the tank and I'm curious why. The only thing I've read is that PH will drop over time if the tank is left alone, but I do 25% weekly water changes. |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 11, 2014 17:01:44 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 22:24:15 GMT -5
No air pumps. Carbonic acid.. maybe that's it. If that's the case then there's a difference in it's impact in this tank from my 10 gal planted where the ph is 7.8-8.0 always. Interesting.. perhaps the plants make use of it? .. back to the articles. I actually made changes to this tank today, but I'll still track this going forward. It's the 5.5g I'd moved the betta and his 2.75g of water into. Rather than have it take forever to cycle again (with no filter) while I gradually increase the volume to where I can add a filter, I opted to steal the HOB from the QT tank I've been cycling. I dripped 2.25 g of new water in over 2 hours and got the filter running on it. It has enough matrix for a 10g, sponge, poly pad, a 6" long pre-filter sponge on the downspout + another 'post-filter' meant more to slow the flow where the water releases into the tank.. all fairly established. So he got 40% new water in one go but has the benefit of the filter and media working right away so overall I believe it will now cycle and be healthier faster. His Highness is delighted with his new bigger pond and it feels better to me. Guess I'm just not comfy keeping bettas in 'bowls'. Thanks for your help Devon, very appreciated and I'll look into carbonic acid some more. |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 12, 2014 17:17:46 GMT -5
No air pumps. Carbonic acid.. maybe that's it. If that's the case then there's a difference in it's impact in this tank from my 10 gal planted where the ph is 7.8-8.0 always. Interesting.. perhaps the plants make use of it? .. back to the articles. I actually made changes to this tank today, but I'll still track this going forward. It's the 5.5g I'd moved the betta and his 2.75g of water into. Rather than have it take forever to cycle again (with no filter) while I gradually increase the volume to where I can add a filter, I opted to steal the HOB from the QT tank I've been cycling. I dripped 2.25 g of new water in over 2 hours and got the filter running on it. It has enough matrix for a 10g, sponge, poly pad, a 6" long pre-filter sponge on the downspout + another 'post-filter' meant more to slow the flow where the water releases into the tank.. all fairly established. So he got 40% new water in one go but has the benefit of the filter and media working right away so overall I believe it will now cycle and be healthier faster. His Highness is delighted with his new bigger pond and it feels better to me. Guess I'm just not comfy keeping bettas in 'bowls'. Thanks for your help Devon, very appreciated and I'll look into carbonic acid some more. So in the 10 gal, it would be that the plants are using up the Co2, which mean less carbonic acid, which means a higher pH. In the tank with no plants or air pump, co2 is not released (from an air pump breaking surface tension) or by plants using up the Co2. So there is more carbonic acid, which means a lower pH...hmmm, best I got, but makes sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 21:12:01 GMT -5
Yes, you've done it again Sherlock!  Makes perfect sense, and not that I thought it meant there's a 'problem', I just like to understand how things work. |
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Post by Carl on Sept 13, 2014 10:26:57 GMT -5
Yes, you've done it again Sherlock! Makes perfect sense, and not that I thought it meant there's a 'problem', I just like to understand how things work. Devon will now be known as "Sherlock"  Carl |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 13, 2014 11:01:53 GMT -5
ha! I like Sherlock Glad it made sense  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2014 11:15:29 GMT -5
ha! I like Sherlock Glad it made sense It's you! Own it... work it...  |
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Makes perfect sense, and not that I thought it meant there's a 'problem', I just like to understand how things work. 
