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Post by angelminx on Jun 20, 2014 20:18:53 GMT -5
I have a question about water testing. I just tried to post this a minute ago, but I hit the wrong key and I think I lost it. At least I couldn't get it back up. So were goes again.
I read somewhere that when you draw your water sample, that you need to take it from below the surface. How far below? I use and old (never been used) medicine dropper to take my samples. Whenever I tried to do it by using the tube, if I got too much, when I tried to pour out the excess, too much would come out. The tube just didn't want to release only a drop or two. Also, I learned a rule back when I took chemistry in college, about "levelling" your sample in the test tube, but I've forgotten the details. It was something about the measureung line and the little "bow" of "water" at the surface of the sample, and how they should line up. Does anybody remember this?
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jun 20, 2014 22:57:48 GMT -5
hmm good questions. I've always done it maybe like 6 inches below the surface and haven't had any issues. I've stopped using the test tubes, once I got done getting the cycle going though. I went to the API 5 in 1 test kits afterwards, which has been easier. I know what you mean about dumping to much out, it just took doing it a couple times. Im not too sue about the leveling.
Maybe take a reading at the top and at the bottom to see if there is a differences. I usually don't have enough swings in my parameters to make me worry and I do a reading maybe a couple times a month. Maybe less.
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Post by Carl on Jun 23, 2014 16:42:22 GMT -5
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Post by angelminx on Jul 28, 2014 1:11:45 GMT -5
I've been taking daily water tests while I have some new fish in quarantine. I've been testing both the (10G)quarantine tank, and the (55G)display tank. That way I can compare the results on some of the tests with each other when the results are real close, like the degree of the color change-over in the KH test, and when both of the pH results are close--especially when transitioning between the regular and high range pH test. Or, for example, with the nitrite test where I can use the two different sample results to see if one has more color to it or if they are both "actually" zero (which I can't always tell with just the one sample). [Pet Peeve: there should not be a jump between 7.2 and 7.6 on the regular test and 7.4 and 7.8 on the high range test. They should also have more of an overlap on each of the 2 tests, because my water usually tends to range somewhere in that area for most of the year, causing me to do both tests to compare between the 2 versions of the test--the colors in the "jump" range of both tests are too close to interperet with out doing this.] Anyway, my pH and KH on both tanks have been running fairly close to each other for a while now. Every time I do a water change before the next treatment dose for the fish in quarantine, I add some KH buffer in the new water (I've been changing out 2 gallons, and adding 1/2 teaspoon KH buffer). Then I test again in the early "evening" and the pH and KH have usually both gone down, but the next day the results are USUALLY back where they should be. Is this a problem for the fish? The same thing happens when I do a water change for the 55G tank. On occaision the pH and/or the KH have GONE DOWN after the water change to below the starting point (both at the evening AND the next day's testing, and I have to add more buffer), even though I did everything the exact same way. Also, sometimes (for example), the pH will read 7.5 with a KH of 4 degrees before the water change, and afterwards the KH may still be 4, but the pH can be 7.4 or 7.6 (or less/more, ie. 7.3/7.7). Or the pH stays the same and the KH varies. How can this be? On to today: In the 55G the KH for the last few days has been 4-4.25 degrees. It was 4 degrees before the scheduled water change yesterday, and 5.5 degrees afterwards. Today when I did the testing (before the quarantine tank's water change) the results were pH: 7.5, KH: 35 degrees! I almost used what reagent was left in the bottle--the color just kept getting a darker and darker blue. I tested the KH in the quarantine tank (after I tested it in the 55--they both have dedicated-to-the-tank test tubes) and it was a KH of 5 degrees with a pH of 7.6 before the water change, and pH: 7.3, KH: 7 degrees at the "evening" test (by the next day, KH has usually gone down a degree or two). Test times today were at 1:15 PM and 6:10 PM. Any idea what would cause such a jump in the KH? Will it be a problem for the fish? BTW, I tested the 55G with the test strips after I got the 35 degree reading and the 10G didn't show any abnormalities, and it said that the KH was 120ppm--the pH with the strips was still 7.5. !
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Post by Carl on Jul 28, 2014 15:48:59 GMT -5
This likely may be caused by the demands of photosynthesis and input of CO2
I can only guess here, but my guess would be that somehow contamination of this tank with extra buffers or even the test vial occurred.
Carl
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Post by angelminx on Jul 28, 2014 18:42:46 GMT -5
I don't add CO2, both because I can't afford it, and because I don't want the hassle that goes along with it. Besides, all that's available to me are the "high-tech" setups, and I've heard that the "homemade" ones are for tanks smaller than 40G. Also, I haven't witnessed any pearling in quite a while, so are the plants still photosynthesising?
I just finished the 2nd set of tests for today.
1st round of tests: 55G (I only did the early test) ph: 7.5, KH: 5.5 degrees! 10G: pH: 7.9, KH: 5.5
2nd round: 10G: pH: 7.1, KH: 4.25 degrees
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Post by goldenpuon on Jul 28, 2014 23:03:37 GMT -5
Regarding the PH change after a water change, though I am not 100% sure on this, if the tapwater you added during the water change had a lower PH than your tankwater, that is why your reading after the water change for the whole tank would be lower. Even though you add KH buffer right after the water change, I'd imagine it would take a little while for your aquarium PH to go back up to where it was if the tapwater had a lower PH. I don't think it is a danger to your fish as long as the PH doesn't go down more than 0.1-0.2ppm during the water change. More than that would be stressful to them. Regarding your most recent 2 tests, what time of day was each taken? This seems like a huge jump unless most of the water was changed. Also, what kind of test strips or liquid test are you using? Last, did you add anything that could have brought down the PH and hardness to your water such as an aquarium decoration? Are the fish showing signs of stress? It seems much more likely to be that something's up with your test kit, not an actual sudden change in water chemistry, but I want to cover all bases. I have heard of people testing a couple parts for aquariums when testing their water since there can be small variations throughout the tank in the water. What is the test kit's expiration date?Some other things to keep in mind. In my experience, test strips stop reading properly if they've been open a while 4 months before the expiration date. Also, if water gets in with test strips or I accidently touch a pad on a test strip with my finger my mistake, they often aren't that accurate. I hope that helps! Renee P.S. I'm not familiar with KH being measured in degrees, so hopefully I didn't miss anything regarding that. I'm using an online calculator to convert the KH readings in degrees to ppm.
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Post by Carl on Jul 29, 2014 9:16:46 GMT -5
I was not necessarily referring to artificial adding of COs. Fish activity during daytime will create more CO2 and other bio activity that will reduce pH & KH. You do not have to witness pearling for photosynthesis to be occurring, this just means a high level of photosynthesis which is not likely with the current lighting you are using. Carl
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Post by Carl on Jul 29, 2014 9:16:53 GMT -5
I was not necessarily referring to artificial adding of COs. Fish activity during daytime will create more CO2 and other bio activity that will reduce pH & KH. You do not have to witness pearling for photosynthesis to be occurring, this just means a high level of photosynthesis which is not likely with the current lighting you are using. Carl
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Post by angelminx on Jul 30, 2014 3:16:13 GMT -5
The expiration date on my 5-in-1 Test Strips by API is 11/'15. Liquid-reagent tests, also API: my pH X-dates are 3/'19 and 1/'18 (normal/high range); nitrate: 4/'19; and nitrite: 8/'17. My ammonia test reagent is empty, and I'm awaiting delivery of a new bottle (I thought I ordered one last time but I only ordered a new Ammonia Alert), and I only have one test left on my API Ammonia Test Strips which expire 2/'16. When I am going to use the test strips I take them out and set them aside, away from where I'm working (before I ever start testing) so know that they haven't gotten wet; I also make sure that their cap has clicked shut when I close them. I don't think I've ever touched any of the pads, but I could be mistaken. I also have an Elos phospate test kit, which has a range of 0(then 0.05)-1.0 mg/L, but I haven't checked it for a while because I broke the test tube (which takes a 10ml sample), so, when I can afford to, I'm ordereing another kit--I just spent a boatload of money on gravel, and a Rio 1000 and a Vecton 2.
The GH & KH Conversion Chart (with the API bottled reagent kit) reads:
# of Drops/ (degrees)dKH/ ppm GH/KH 1 / 1 / 17.9 2 / 2 / 35.8 3 / 3 / 53.7 4 / 4 / 71.6 5 / 5 / 89.5 6 / 6 / 107.4 7 / 7 / 125.3 8 / 8 / 143.2 9 / 9/ 161.1 10 / 10 / 179 11 / 11 / 196.9 12 / 12 / 214.8
I usually change out 9 gallons in the 55G (except when I clean the XP2--which I only just started back up again with the Rio and the Vecton--and then the water that's in it gets dumped, too), and 2 gallons in the 10G quarantine/hospital tank, when I do a water change.
Yesterday's tests were taken at 1:10 PM and 5:40 PM.
Today, at 1 PM: 55G (again, I only tested the one time): pH: 7.6, KH: 4.25 degrees [The .25 comes from the fact that it would probably only take a small fraction of a drop after, the 4th one, to change the color of the sample completely over to yellow] 10G: pH: 7.5, KH: 4
2nd test (with a 2 gallon water change and 1/2 tsp Alkaline Buffer, right after the 1st test), at 5:30: 10G: pH: 7.2, KH: 5.5
I would normally have tested the tap water parameters this month (1-4 different times, then averaged them out at the end of the month and recorded the result on a separate chart), but I've been so busy, I never remembered to put the water out to sit. I do have it out now, to test tomorrow. The last time I tested it, was at the end of June and it read pH: 7.1/KH: 3 degrees, with the test strips reading just under 7.0/80 ppm (4.5 degrees). I try to wait around 24 hours to test the tap water, because, a while ago, I tested it "immediately" after drawing the sample (into a 6 0z jar); and at about 2 hrs; 11 1/2 hrs; 26 hrs; and 52 hrs, and got readings of pH: 6.8/KH:3.5 degrees; 7.0/4 degrees; 7.3/3.5 degrees; 7.7/3.25 degrees; and 7.9/5 degrees, respectively.
The only thing I've added to the tank recently--besides the new UV setup--is the gravel I've been changing over to (I'm replacing the regular Flourite). I mixed a little Onyx Sand with Flourite Black sand, and then used mostly Petsmart's Top Fin black gravel (about #3 in size) "on top". I haven't finished the change-out yet. I had wanted to get some of the DARK shaded pea gravel they had, but they only had the one bag, and when I've gone back (a few times) they've never had any more, and that bag was gone. It was a nice deep (shades of) brown. Everywhere else I looked only had medium (or lighter) shades of pea gravel, so I got all black, instead.
No signs of stress in any of the fish that I've notice, in either tank.
I did notice today that when I was taking the 55G's reading, that I got a result for the KH of 7 degrees, so I took a 2nd sample (out of what I thought was the same place in the aquarium) and it read 4.25, so I'm guessing the test tube got contaminated somehow--maybe I didn't rinse it enough. I try to rinse each one out 5 times with hot water, then shake each one out (so they'll dry faster), as well as their caps. As I said before, to avoid cross-contamination I have dedicated test tubes. With the 1st API (Master) test kit I purchased the test tubes had a wider band at the 5ml mark. I've broken enough of them that I only have 3 of them left, so I've marked some of the newer tubes with blue permanant marker, and the # 10, and 8 with red and the letter T (for tap), and left 8 "blank". I've held a bunch back to be used when I break any more (I've been "collecting" them as I get replacement test kits).
BTW, back when I got my original API FW Master Test Kit, it included both GH and KH tests, and the ammonia test consisted of only 1 bottle of reagent (and the reagents did not have any expiration dates on them--or the box--they came in a box back then, too). When it got close to time that I had to replace the reagents, I got another Master Kit because it was on sale, and was cheaper than replacing the reagents individually--it was that newer "model".
Angelminx
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Post by angelminx on Jul 30, 2014 3:38:31 GMT -5
I just had to edit my post, because after spending quite a bit of time centering the numbers in the Conversion Chart under their respective categories (which were also spaced out), when I posted the reply, it squished everything together.
Again, I can't figure out what I did to end up with part of the post in italics. It doesn't show up like that before it gets posted, and nothing is showing up to indicate that it will.
Also, for the last week or so, my computer has been "acting up". It has been working slowly, freezing up, and alot of my key stokes have either been showing up after a few seconds delay, or not even registering. It took me twice as long to type the previous post because of this. And one time, when I went back to make a correction, I left-clicked on the mouse, where I wanted to make the change, and 1 1/2 sentances disappeared, and I had to try and remember what had been erased--it happened in an awkward location, i.e.: the middle of one sentance, all of the next, and half of the next one.
ARRRGH!!!
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 30, 2014 17:01:09 GMT -5
Sorry for the frustration. Computers drive me nuts sometimes. I've been taking my longer posts and doing them in Word first, saving along the way, then paste them into the reply sections when I'm ready.
It looks like the readings are as to be expected. The pH climbs... I would do the second test, where you added the buffer and brought up your KH a little. The KH is in the zone, but it's on the lower side of the scale. Is this what you are thinking you are going to do?
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Post by angelminx on Jul 31, 2014 2:03:07 GMT -5
I had tech support go over my system earlier today, and things seem to be working better now.
I usually do tank water tests once/week, and just before a water change. Also, later in the day afterwards, in case I need to add more buffer, and the following day to see how things stand after the tank has adjusted. Every once in a while--and fairly often about a year and a half ago--I will have a pH crash, or I would probably not be so paranoid about my water parameters. I would like to keep my KH around 5 or 6 degrees, but so far I haven't figured that out, so I'm happy for it to just remain at 4 degrees. It took a while before I got to that point--I used to have problems keeping it at 3 degrees. At the time, though, I was going by the instructions from Seachem, and using both AKB and ACB, so I don't know if that was part of the problem--and, that I have a big chunk of driftwood in the 55G. [AKB stands for Alkaline Buffer; ACB for Acid Buffer, which I haven't used for a while now.]
I tested the Tap Water sample twice today. Usually I try to test it around 24 hrs or so after it has been drawn, but I drew it too late yesterday, so the testing times were at about 12 hrs and 16 1/2 hours.
1st test, 2 PM (just before 2 gallon H20 change with 1/2 tsp AKB for 10G, and 1 gallon top-off with 1/4 tsp AKB for the 55G):
10G: pH: 7.6, KH: 5.5 degrees, GH: 10 degrees 55G: pH: 7.5, KH: 4.5 degrees, GH: 17 degrees Tap: pH: 7.4, KH: 3.25 degrees, GH: 8 degrees
2nd round, 6:35 PM:
10G: pH: 7.4, KH: 6.5 degrees (did not re-test GH) 55G: pH: 7.3, KH: 4.5 degrees Tap: pH: 7.6, KH: 4.25 degrees
Whenever I am going to do an H20 change, I always test the tanks' water to see where it's at, so I have an idea of how much buffer to add to the change water. I have an approximate idea of how much to use, generally, but it doesn't always work out the way I think it's going to. On the 1st of May I drew 2 gallons of tap water and tested it after it had sat for an hour: the pH was 6.7, and the KH was 3 degrees; then I added 1/4 tsp of AKB, waited another hour, and tested again. The pH was 7.4 (which is what I've been aiming for), and the KH was 7 degrees (which by the next day has always gone down a degree or 2, tho I don't know why). But recently, for the 10G I have been adding 1/2 tsp AKB (to a 2 gallon change), because if I hadn't, by the next day's reading the pH and KH tended to fall quite a bit, with the pH closer to neutral.
I don't know why there is sometimes a variation between where the pH and KH lie within relation to each other. For example , the two readings today for the 55G--the KH didn't go up this time, like it usually does after adding the buffer.
I'll report my readings for tomorrow, then, unless there is a problem or something, won't worry about it for a while. When I don't do H2O changes as often as I am for the tank being treated, the water parameters are usually fairly stable, so if I don't take readings as often, it usually isn't a problem. I like to do the Tap water readings one a month, since I live in a rural area, with lots of farms around, and the town gets its water from the lake that's probably 1/2 - 1 mile away from where I live.
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Post by angelminx on Jul 31, 2014 2:06:23 GMT -5
I always felt like Dr. Grant on Jurassic Park--if I touch a computer, it's going to go all wonky. I had that happen a few times when I was in college--back in the days of the begining of the internet.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 31, 2014 16:33:05 GMT -5
I'm not sure how to explain the difference in pH either. I do believe there is some relationship with oxygen. My suggestion is to do what you are doing. Take a few days worth of readings and that will give you a good idea where the parameters sit. Then add buffer according. I would check about once a month after that to make sure you are still in the zone. If you are, the amount of buffer should change. Once you get to know your water, you shouldn't have to measure out buffer so much. You'll just know what you have to add.
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Post by angelminx on Aug 1, 2014 0:13:06 GMT -5
My readings for today were:
1:30 PM
10G: pH: 7.6, KH: 6 degrees 55G: pH: 7.4, KH: 4 degrees
6 PM
10G: pH: 7.4, KH: 7.25 degrees 55G: pH: 7.5, KH: 4 degrees
This is what I mean when I mention the differences; in the 10G (the day after an H2O change), when pH is 7.5, the KH has usually fallen to--and remains at--4.5 to 5 degrees, until the next H20 change, while in the 55G (a day after a change), the KH rarely moves above or below 4 degrees--even the time when I got a pH reading of 7.7, it stayed at 4 degrees. Once, when I got a reading in the 55G of 7.3 for the pH both after the change, and the day after, the KH: was 4 degrees after the change and 3.25 degrees the day after. So I added 1/2 tsp AKB, and later that day it was pH: 7.6, KH: 4 degrees, and the day after it stayed at a pH of 7.6 and a KH of 4.
P S. Again, part of the post ended up italisize, with nothing showing in the "quick reply box" that it would.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 4, 2014 17:17:29 GMT -5
My readings for today were: 1:30 PM 10G: pH: 7.6, KH: 6 degrees 55G: pH: 7.4, KH: 4 degrees
6 PM
10G: pH: 7.4, KH: 7.25 degrees 55G: pH: 7.5, KH: 4 degrees
This is what I mean when I mention the differences; in the 10G (the day after an H2O change), when pH is 7.5, the KH has usually fallen to--and remains at--4.5 to 5 degrees, until the next H20 change, while in the 55G (a day after a change), the KH rarely moves above or below 4 degrees--even the time when I got a pH reading of 7.7, it stayed at 4 degrees. Once, when I got a reading in the 55G of 7.3 for the pH both after the change, and the day after, the KH: was 4 degrees after the change and 3.25 degrees the day after. So I added 1/2 tsp AKB, and later that day it was pH: 7.6, KH: 4 degrees, and the day after it stayed at a pH of 7.6 and a KH of 4.
P S. Again, part of the post ended up italisize, with nothing showing in the "quick reply box" that it would.
This is making me a little confused. I'm not grasping why the water would be different between the two tanks, unless there was something in the tank affecting the KH. Do you use anything like peat moss, driftwood, or almond leaf in either of the tanks? It seems like the 55g is fine though. Really the pH difference between all these records are not to much to make be concerned though. I think something my .2 shifts are normal for pH, which has something to do with the oxygen in the water...Maybe someone can help us out on this one...
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Post by angelminx on Aug 5, 2014 0:25:43 GMT -5
The 10G has a small piece of driftwood (actually a "grapevine" branch that's about 6" long and the size of a quarter in diameter--with a small Anubias growing on it); the 55G has a "chunk" of (?)mopani driftwood that's around 10" long, 6" tall, and from front to back varies in thickness from about 6", to 9 or 10" where a "branch" juts off the back.
The 10G is more stable when I'm not doing daily water changes. I just did a 3 gallon change today, and after a few hours of running with carbon (which I removed afterwards) I added the medicated wonder shell, so I shouldn't have to do any changes for a bit.
I can't think of anything else thay would affect the 10G. It just has the (aquarium) gravel, wood, Anubias, a ceramic aquarium ornament for hiding in, the Ammonia Alert, and the sponge filter and Whisper 10i internal filter. Oh, and I tossed in some of the excess hornwort, after trimming what I had in the 55G.
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Post by Carl on Aug 5, 2014 9:04:20 GMT -5
I have mostly just followed this thread rather than commented, as I have stated before, I do not agree with with this much concern over pH and KH levels. I have noted earlier too that these changes in pH, KH are explanable, here is a snip form the Overview section of the Aquarium Chemistry article: "KH (carbonate hardness) is an important source of energy for nitrifying bacteria that eliminate ammonia and nitrite. In addition, carbonates may be used by plants for photosynthesis when carbon dioxide (CO2) is absent."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.htmlCarl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 5, 2014 17:17:52 GMT -5
I have mostly just followed this thread rather than commented, as I have stated before, I do not agree with with this much concern over pH and KH levels. I have noted earlier too that these changes in pH, KH are explanable, here is a snip form the Overview section of the Aquarium Chemistry article: "KH (carbonate hardness) is an important source of energy for nitrifying bacteria that eliminate ammonia and nitrite. In addition, carbonates may be used by plants for photosynthesis when carbon dioxide (CO2) is absent."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.htmlCarl So, that must explain it. I knew there wasn't too much shifting to be concerned about and now we have a reason for it. Looks like you just try to get the KH in the zone as best as you can.
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