Angel with stubborn fin rot

[parker002]

I posted a Photobucket primer around here a while back. You might try searching for it. If you can't find it let me know and I'll see if I can find it.

[Carl]

Aug 25, 2014 9:03:23 GMT -5 parker002 said:

I posted a Photobucket primer around here a while back. You might try searching for it. If you can't find it let me know and I'll see if I can find it.

Here is the link:
everythingaquatic.proboards.com/thread/3331

Carl

[angelminx]

Thnks, guys. I'm just doing a quick check of the threads right now, but maybe this evening I'll have a chance to check it out.

[parker002]

If you need any help let me know. I use Photobucket for everything and it's really easy to get good results.

[Deleted]

I am new here-- and haven't read every reply. I suggest treating fin rot right away with Hikari Bio Bandage. I have had great success with this topical treatment. To help prevent fin rot, I suggest alternating Melefix and Pimafix (since some fish may be sensitive to those treatments). I do Melefix in the AM and Pimafix at night. Also.... Microbe-Lift Artemiss can help prevent Fin Rot.

[Carl]

Welcome Judy4fish

The Hikari Bio Bandage is a good idea, as it has proven ingredients to help with these issues

Ingredients:
Neomycin Sulfate, Methylene Blue, Cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12), binder, Adhesion agents in isotonic, aqueous solution

I will have to respectfully disagree with the use of the MicroLift product until they publish or we can find some information as to ingredients.
There are known ways to improve fish fin rot issues such as improved Redox balance which can be improved via mineral Cations, level one Sterilizations, etc.
As well simply maintaining good water parameters and a good diet goes a long ways in disease prevention of any kind

References:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication4.html#microbe
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quality_Fish_Food.html

Alternating Melafix and Pimafix evening/morning is an excellent idea to allow for less stress on both the fish and environment

Carl

[angelminx]

Hi, again!

I went back through some of my old pics (they didn't necessarily store in order, so I may be slightly off) and here is an approximate progression of the fin rot:

This is ~ what her tail looked like before the problem ( I don't have a good close-up):
 

This after the errosion the 1st time (it had been halted at this point):


To follow are some pics from this point on...

[angelminx]

Here she is in the quarantine tank (after her tail had been healed for a while, it started to errode again, beginning with a comb-like edging to the center section):
     

This is after rest of the tail (from the upper pics) "broke off":

[angelminx]

Here she is back in the 55G after her tail started healing again (the extensions broke off, first):

     

In the last shot, you can see how the tail is growing back (it erroded down to 4 stripes before healing began).

[angelminx]

Here the tail is showing the comb-like "extensions" at the end of the tail (they don't show up very well in the bath)
     

In this, and the previous pic, you can see the difference in her tail pattern past the stripes (the tail  is showing some regrowth):

[angelminx]

For about the last month and a half her tail has been going back and forth with the errosion, but never worse than this:

     

As you can see in the last pic, there are sometime a few pieces of (?)fungus on her tail fringe (and sometimes at the end of her dorsal, anal, and/or ventral fins), but this is usually gone in a day or two.

Any idea why she seems to be having this continued problem?  She is the only one that does...Angelminx (maybe I should keep my mouth shut) has never had a problem...but maybe that's because she has a regular tail?  The other fish in the tank have rarely had fin rot since I got the UV sterilizer--don't know if that has anything to do with it, but I assume not, since Munky has been plagued so often.

Thanks, again,

Angelminx

BTW, I have never seen any of the other fish in the tank pick at her (or Angelminx's) fins since Gerrie (the Gold Angel girl, who started it all) went to a new home.

[Carl]

Any idea why she seems to be having this continued problem? She is the only one that does...Angelminx (maybe I should keep my mouth shut) has never had a problem...but maybe that's because she has a regular tail? The other fish in the tank have rarely had fin rot since I got the UV sterilizer--don't know if that has anything to do with it, but I assume not, since Munky has been plagued so often.

My best guess is that this fish is weakened from the infection, likely with the pathogens never totally eliminated.

Using myself as an example, after getting a systemic staph infection 10 years ago, I have never been quite the same

I would consider medicated/MB baths with salt the main course of action when problems re-occur, but even then used for 7-10 days than stopped for at least two weeks.

BTW, as an update (and for my record), could you provide a timeline of treatment for this angelfish?

Carl

[Deleted]

Hi Angelminx,

Do you have Seachem Stress Guard yet? I highly recommend dosing with that everyday. It will help your angelfish heal. Along with the Methylene Blue/salt baths (in separate container, of course), you might try Melafix and Pimafix in the display tank (alternating 12 hours a part). Using both products halted the mouth rot for my fish in the hospital tank.

You can use Melafix and Pimafix for seven days and see how that works. Those treatments are not harmful to any of your other inhabitants. If you are worried how your other inhabitants will react, you can slightly under dose and watch them. I found that my loaches (in my 20 gallon) do not like either one of those treatments (so I can't use them in that tank...My tinfoil barbs in my 75 gallon don't like them, but will tolerate the treatments).

If you are placing an order from AAP for Stress Guard, add a tiny bottle of Hikari Bio Bandage - which is proven to work for fin rot (I have had great success with that).

Judy

[devonjohnsgard]

It does sound like immunity of the fish and the problem is just coming down to the fish. I will say my angle is the main fish who struggles with infection in my tank.

I think the bath idea is good, just to see if the problem keeps coming back. I know you say it's back and forth so I wonder if the angel fully heals.

The stress guard could be a good idea. I think Melafix and Pimafix wouldn't be affective for this type of disease. The difference between gram positive and gram negative infections.

Also, maybe just considering some salt in the tank with the Angel, which could be a preventive.

[Deleted]

Well... I guess I am just lucky. Melafix and Pimafix does work for me to treat fin rot and mouth rot. I have to use it in the hospital tank though as both hubby and I are allergic to those treatments. Using it in the 10 gallon doesn't bother us.... but using it in the 75 gallon does....that is just too much Melafix and Pimafix. In talking with an associate from API, Melafix and Pimafix are not classified as gram positive or gram negative.....They can be used for both gram positive and gram negative infections. Pimafix working better for internal and fungus while Melafix for only external infections. I got this from the expert who I have been talking to for years (since 2006). I suppose your research shows different results.

Judy

[Carl]

Melafix and Pimafix are not classified as gram positive or gram negative.....They can be used for both gram positive and gram negative infections. Pimafix working better for internal and fungus while Melafix for only external infections. I got this from the expert who I have been talking to for years (since 2006). I suppose your research shows different results.

Melafix is gram positive and is best used in the same way you would neosporin, as a first aid.
This said, when used WITH Pimafix, it has somewhat of a synergistic effect

"Since Melafix has been proven scientifically to be primarily effective only on gram positive bacterium which are far less often a cause of serious aquarium and pond bacterial infections than gram negative infections such as Columnaris, the use of this product for said infections is totally useless.
However since many gram positive infections are often first invaders in injuries, sores, torn fins, etc., the immediate use of Melafix can help prevent opportunistic bacteria such as Aeromonas or Columnaris to get started in the first place. "

While I have used these products for years, keep in mind that over use or incorrect use has negative side effects, just because something is natural, does not make it safe
"This also brings up an important point about Melafix use in general for all fish and that is that both Melafix and Pimafix are acidic and negatively affect Redox Balance, so while these products certainly have their place in aquarium use, continued use will most definitely cause issues with Redox Balance and therefore long term fish immunity."

Again do not take it that I am against these products, in fact I have defended these product in forums where they are blamed for deaths of Bettas where it simply was due to other causes or mis-use

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication4.html

Carl

[Deleted]

Thanks Carl,

Next time I communicate with the experts from API, I will share this information with them.

Judy

[angelminx]

No problem, Carl. I'll sit down with my notes in the next few days and post the timeline.

Judy,

I did pick up a new bottle of Stress Guard last month (I also ordered 2 "fish-bottles" of BioBandage) when I ordered my replacement UV bulb from Carl.

[Carl]

Jan 24, 2015 19:18:42 GMT -5 @judy4fish said:

Thanks Carl,

Next time I communicate with the experts from API, I will share this information with them.

Judy

I would definitely suggest giving this article I wrote a full read (including checking references) since you were not aware of this.
The article makes it clear this is a good product when used correctly, especially as a first response. However just as you would not use neosporin for a major infection on yourself, nor should Melafix be used for many full blown fish infections

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication4.html

Carl

[parker002]

Angelminx,

As many have suggested, it's possible your fish' immune system is compromised. Getting rid of the infection should be the top priority but I'm not sure it won't just keep coming back if you don't try to boost your fish' disease resistance. To that end, you might try getting some high quality food like Spirulina 20 or Paradigm and soaking it in a multivitamin.