Aquarium Redox

[Carl]

We have updated the Aquarium Redox article,

Further information and references were added, including credit for UVC/Redox research

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html

Carl

[Carl]

I have further updated the Aquarium Redox article with more information

Here is a key quote:
"Here are a few reducers, in other words, elements or processes that can transfer electrons to another substance; Magnesium, Calcium, Sodium, and the process of Photosynthesis involves both oxidation and reducing.

As one can see from the graph, elements such as most metals, as well as essential elements for aquatic life: Calcium and Magnesium are major reducers.
However because of this they are also most easily depleted (the elements at the top and the bottom of the graph are most easily depleted in their oxidation or reducing properties).

True UVC Sterilization also reduces, by electrically charging (adding an electron) and breaking down oxidizers in the water column. The problem of late is the flood on low cost UV Sterilizers or low output medium pressure UV replacement bulbs sold on Amazon, eBay, and other websites that are at best only capable of clarification and NOT true level one sterilization which can then improve Redox balance. "

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/redox_potential.html

Carl

[Carl]

I have updated the Aquarium (& pond) Redox article once again.

Here is a quote from the article:
"*Reduction describes the gain of an electron by a molecule, atom or ion.
Another way to look at this is remove oxygen atoms or add hydrogen atoms.
EXAMPLE: The reduction of carbon by hydrogen to yield methane (CH4).
Reduction is the GAIN of electrons by a molecule.
Reduction is when a molecule can give positive electrons to an oxidized molecule, thus ceasing the oxidation of the molecule.

Another example: Calcium (Ca2+) or Magnesium (Mg2+) which initially are composed of two positively charged ions immersed in a sea of movable electrons may have given up all possible electrons to cells/molecules under oxidation.
It is for this reason, then that positively charged calcium and magnesium supplies must be constantly renewed; without this “fresh” positively charged calcium, etc. your Redox balance will suffer.

Think of it this way; a battery "works" only when a positive and a negative electrode are present to maintain an electrical current. When the positive plates become exhausted, the battery is no longer functional, even though the metal plates and other "ingredients" for the battery are still present.
So it is that your GH or Calcium Test may show adequate minerals, but these minerals have been oxidized and thus rendering the test inaccurate as per ESSENTIAL positively charged calcium ions. This why it is folly to attempt to drive down GH to very low levels in a misguided attempt to replicate certain environmental biotopes based on old school opinions of GH."

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html

Carl

[Carl]

I have updated the Aquarium Redox article again!

Here is an important quote:
"Redox, also known as Redox Potential, oxidation potential, & ORP (oxidation reduction potential) describes the ability for the loss of an electron by a molecule, atom or ion to the gain of an electron by another molecule, atom or ion.
Without this ability to gain electrons, many minerals cannot be absorbed and properly assimilated, especially in times of stress.
So it is very important to keep a healthy Redox Balance via proper dissolved oxygen levels, proper positively charged mineral levels (such as Calcium and Magnesium), and even level 1 or higher UV Sterilization. "

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html

Carl

[Carl]

I have updated the pdf downloadable version of the Redox Article too now

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html#pdf

Carl

[Carl]

I have performed a more minor update of the Redox Article, that also includes a further update of the pdf download.

With all the medication and treatment use activity, I will use this article update to point out this quote in the "Redox Problems" section of the article:
"Overuse of many natural remedies.
While many think that natural remedies have no side effects, they are incorrect, at least when it comes to Redox.
Some extensively tested examples include Melafix, Pimafix, with newer testing revealing more such as Herbtana.
I am not saying these are not viable alternatives to conventional treatments, but many use organics that go after bacteria and parasites in ways that alter pH and more importantly Redox as they are oxidizers. The problem occurs with the constant use of these products thinking they are 100% safe when they are not. No treatment is 100% safe and has some sort of side effect. As an example a Medicated Wonder Shell actually improves Redox, but some of the chemicals contained in these can be harmful to plants if used constantly.
The bottom line is to use conservatively and only when necessary!!"

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html#redox_problems

Carl

[Deleted]

Thanks Carl,

Permission to share this with Microbe-Lift? I am writing to Karin Berke after the first of the year.
It should be noted though that NONE of these natural products are to be used on a continual basis/long term. It only takes three or four doses to rid the tank of Ich. That certainly is not enough to cause any issues with "Redox". I would also like to point out the using natural treatments has never altered my pH. If that is happening, then something else must be wrong. I like my own tests.

If users keep up with water changes and supply additional minerals with Seachem Fresh Trace -- all should be fine. I have found that Seachem Fresh Trace is better for some fish (each fish is different). Not only do Wonder Shells cause "Increased Sexual Activity" -- they cause some fish to get more aggressive. While I am not an expert on Redox as you are - I am an expert at observing fish behavior. I only use a fraction of the recommended Wonder Shell (like the smallest size in my 20 gallon -- and less than that in my 10 gallon as those loaches got super aggressive with a full size small shell). The full grown botias just go dancing! -- but my 8-line redtail rainbow got super aggressive... now that the small shell is about half the size, he has calmed down. In my 75 gallon, I have less than 1/4 of a medium shell.... that amount seems to be OK.... No aggression from my featherfin catfish now.

Once I have used up my shells, I will just use Fresh Trace as I can more easily control that. Your fish are different than my fish. I wasn't kidding before when I wrote the tinfoil barbs wouldn't go near the shell. The larger shell (medium size that you sell) caused problems for them and I took it out the next day and broke some off. I only gave my son a package of small shells (rather than the large size I bought) - and he used them one at a time. I bought him Seachem Fresh Trace for Christmas.

OK... lied again... I am making another forum post....but would like to organize the information I am sending to Karin Berke (Microbe-Lift). I am also composing a letter to send to API with questions I have now about products I have used from them. I have received excellent information back from all companies to which I have written (except one - that I won't mention here -- I won't buy anything else that company makes).

Judy

[Carl]

Permission granted (its a free article anyway)

I have used the similar Reef Trace and it is indeed a very good product with actually more precision going into their ingredients than a Wonder Shell

The main advantage of a WS is the fact no other method provides the constant supply of mineral Cations the way this product can, however using fragments of Wonder Shells is all that is needed to perform this.
The only other advantage of the WS is the Medicated version I have found is one of the safest ways to deliver medication while at the same time addressing fish immunity too

Carl

[Deleted]

Thanks Carl,

This is just a curiosity...and I don't expect an immediate answer.... I am just curious WHY pet stores and other pet supply online sources don't carry Wonder Shells (the regular ones). I won't tell you all of the searches I tried in order to see if I could find a reason (but here is a smile --- with all of those searches, American Aquarium Products came up as the place to find them - Pet Mountain and Amazon didn't come up in those more precise/key word searches). I know you told me via private email that they are basically a regional item - and pretty popular on the West Coast.

Now--if anyone wants a real laugh out loud moment - go to Drs. Foster and Smith web site - enter Wonder Shell in the search bar and see what they think a Wonder Shell is.... You may just laugh yourself silly (my husband was in bed upstairs and could hear my laughter downstairs). On Pet Solutions, peanuts (in the shells) come up as first choice.... On That Fish Place, as least actual shells come up.

I can just imagine the next YouTube video... "Is this a Wonder Shell?..... No.... Is this a Wonder Shell?.... No.... Are these Wonder Shells?.....No......" but, I am certain the photo on Drs. Foster and Smith is copyrighted.

I have known the importance of adding Trace Minerals for a long time.... Seachem has excellent information on their web site. I wish more companies would have articles showing/telling WHY we should buy their products (although none could compare to AAP -- smile)- not just listing their claims it does this or that. I read everything on Seachem many times over the years (as I can't remember every thing I have ever read -- re-reads always good).

I will post back what I find from writing to API and Microbe-Lift. I won't even start those letters/emails until after the first of the year.

Cheers,

Judy

[Carl]

As far as online sources not selling these, I cannot be sure, but frankly I am hopeful since we are the ones dating back to 2005 that have done 99% of the work bring these to an International market that others have simply not bothered.

A major distributor has told me sales have sky rocked with others selling too from what once was just a regional secret.
My best guess from what they have stated and based on emails is that because almost all information, including an e-How article all points to us, many have said "why bother"
As well, most do not have the correct usage information and sizing we have, and finally we do hold the trade mark to the Medicated Wonder Shell, so others that are not authorized through us cannot sell these.
We have however sold these to many LFS.


Back to the regional market, these were very popular in the Southern California market, for many years before we sold them on the Internet and they sold like candy on our store. As well our maintenance company and others also go through them like candy since they are so simple to use for the results, and if used correctly little is needed, UNLIKE the directions given by those just copying an attempting to make a quick buck off our work.

If I got the same result as you at Dr F & S it is a dog wonder women outfit

Carl

[Deleted]

Did you just laugh out loud?! That was a "Wonder" suit "Shell" - I guess. I thought you all would like that. That dog did NOT like being Wonder Woman. The expression on her face is just too funny.

I only plan to write a review on Amazon about them (I do by fish care products from Amazon - but not Wonder Shells...any time I need Wonder Shells, I will order from AAP)- and my key words for folks to enter in a search engine will lead to AAP every time. Posting URLs in an review is not permitted. The only other online retailer I used that stocks them is "PM" - and you know I will never write another review on their site to help sell anything (actually, they no longer carry the products I did write reviews for -- so I had stopped buying from them.....and only came across them again last fall only to find out the product I ordered had to be expired already - but found out too late and "PM" wouldn't cancel the order).

Cheers,

Judy

[Carl]

I have further updated several sections of the Redox Article.

Here is a snip from the overview section:
"Here are a few oxidizers: ozone (O3; Oxidation potential= +2.1), hydrogen peroxide(H2O2; Oxidation potential= +1.82), chlorine (Cl2) and chloramines (NH2Cl).

As well, some aquarium products are also oxidizers such as Potassium Permanganate (sold in products such as "Jungle/Tetra Clear Water") and Mardel Maracyn Oxy. For this reason both of these products should be used with great caution in your aquarium (although use in established aquariums with a balanced Redox should not be problem when used as directed).
Even mild oxidizing aquarium remedies such as Melafix or Herbtana should be used sparingly as over use WILL CAUSE oxidative stress, as this is what an oxidizer does, it causes stress to tissues! Think stomach acid, an oxidizer, but you sure would not want your other body tissues exposed to it."

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html

Carl

[Carl]

We have further updated the Aquarium Redox article.

This update includes a new banner by Steven!



Carl

[Carl]

Another update for our popular Redox in Aquariums article

Here is snip from the Redox as it applies to aquariums section:
"Human studies show a clear link between the Redox level in the blood of a healthy person and an unhealthy person, especially when it comes to cancer. Those with cancer and other chronic illnesses show more oxidation.
For fish, this means that while oxidizing agents have their place, we should not be regularly dumping oxidizing products in our aquariums, even if they are so-called "natural" products whether it be Microbe-Lift Herbtana or API Melafix. The scientific facts are that over the long term the regular use of these products WILL SHORTEN the life of your fish and make them more susceptible to diseases, including tumors."

Referenced section:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html#aquarium_redox

Carl

[Carl]

I have updated the Aquarium Redox Article, this time witha simple animated picture by Steven that shows a basic Redox Reaction (reduction of an oxidizer)



Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html

Carl

[Carl]

I have further updated the "Aquarium Redox" article

A new diagram was also added showing how dangerous oxidizers are produced during the normal nitrogen cycle process.



Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html#aquarium_redox

Carl

[Carl]

I have further updated the Aquarium Redox article.

Here area couple snips:

"As research grows, knowing what can affect oxidation and reduction which are both important in their own way can help an aquarium keeper deal better with sick fish or an aquarium that has a sudden build up of organics. Even lighting and quality of light is showing to have an affect on Redox based on tests!"

and

"Lighting and the "quality" of this light also impact aquarium Redox. By quality I mean the nanometer wavelengths make a difference on the impact of Redox, with lighting in a more natural "noon time sun" 6500K appearing to have the greatest impact overall.
This impact is a reduction of ORP from the time the lights go on in the morning into the day, going back up after lights are off.
The implication is that if you need a higher ORP for oxidation due to organic waste buildup, lights should be reduced. However generally speaking and if your fish are sick, reducing Redox (ORP) is what you want and stronger and better lighting (such as produced by the AquaRay GroBeams and AquaBeams)."

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Very interesting! Excited to see more from the experiment!

Here's one

[rogierfvv]

This whole thread on Redox brings back some research about drinking water and redox potential, as I was involved in developing a marketing plan for so-called water ionizers back in 1999. In the past (and some people still do think this) it was thought this water was healthy because of the high PH - alkalinity - until someone said, but OK then you don't need an expensive machine, you can just add minerals to the water. In 1997 there was research by Prof. Sanetaka Shirahata of Kyoto University, which was published in BBRC - full reference: 

“Electrolyzed-Reduced Water Scavenges Active Oxygen Species and Protects DNA from Oxidative Damage”



Sanetaka Shirahata, Shirgeru Kabayama, Mariko Nakano, Takumi Miura, Kenichi Kusumoto, Miho Gotoh, Hidemitsu Hayashi, Kazumichi Otsubo, Shinkatsu Morisawa, and Yoshinori Katakura



Published in: Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications, Vol. 234, No.1, May 8, 1997

The point of the paper was to prove that Electrolyzed Reduced Water (ERW), which one produces with these so-called Ionizers (producing both alkaline (reduced) and acidic (oxidized) water by electrolysis), is effective because of the presence of the H- ion, not because of the alkalinity, which is merely a side effect of the process. Now the focus shifted to the low ORP of the water, more so than the alkalinity. In 1997 this was a controversial finding, because no one thought H- could persist, however it was apparently also found in some naturally occurring waters that had healing properties, but Shirahata demonstrated that the H- in ERW persisted for some 30 days at least.

One of the big players in that arena was a Dr. Hidemitsu Hayashi, who later came to the market with a mineral stick that also produces H- ions in water, and raises PH, while lowering the ORP to ca -150 to -200. His material can be found on his website www.hydrogeninmywaterbottle.com you can find most of the scientific theory and research on the site:

• www.hydrogeninmywaterbottle.com/html/research.html
  
• www.hydrogeninmywaterbottle.com/html/science.html
  

There is a whole school of thought that says it is not possible to generate H- in water without energy, moreover that H- would not persist, but apparently there is an increasing body of reports that it is possible, some of which was summarized here:
h-minus-ion.vpinf.com/index.html

And these days you can find online a whole array of options of various stainless steel sticks that claim to produce Hydrogen rich water, with a PH in the 9.5 range and ORP of -150 to -200.

It would seem worthwhile to check out to what extent this technology is usable in any way, shape or form in the aquarium context, even though one would be inclined to think that the high PH is a problem... The fact is that for human health, there is a growing body of knowledge saying this hydrogen rich water is a powerful antioxidant, with significant health benefits. It is all about the negative ORP, and the alkalinity is a side issue.

I am suggesting that this bears looking into for its relevance to aquarium keeping.

[Carl]

Thanks for sharing this, very helpful.


Yes, I have been reading about this for some time now (I have some links in the article too including one you shared)

Other methods for medical reduction of Redox in blood via UVC has also been explored.


The only negative is how the reduced water makes it past the highly oxidized environment of the stomach is where there are questions (I have had this conversation with my personal Doctor)

Carl