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Post by Carl on Jan 29, 2013 10:35:30 GMT -5
I would leave the UV connected for a couple days or until water is 'normal', then turn it back on I can tell that there is no scientific explanation for this to happen with the use of UV Sterilization (I have literally used or am familiar with 1000s of UV Sterilizer installations without anything related to your problem). Either something is/was being missed or something was/is present that interacted with the UVC irradiation. As a side note, the use of products that introduce Heterotrophic Bacteria should be avoided unless there is a problem with the aquarium that requires an emergency infusion of these bacteria which can out compete the necessary Autotrophic bacteria leaving your aquarium or pond nitrogen cycle crippled. See Aquarium Nitrogen cycleCarl
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Post by tamara on Jan 29, 2013 16:33:38 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply. The bacterial products we have are from before we came upon your websites. However, I'll relay the info to Kevin. He really makes the decisions for this tank. I'm just the research department.
I'm thinking if the problem persists, I'll contact someone at the local university chemistry department and see if they'd like to solve a mystery.
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Post by tamara on Jan 29, 2013 17:08:11 GMT -5
I did remember one more product we have used that's maybe a little unusual. Dr. Tim's "One and Only" nitrifying bacteria. This was about 2 months and many water changes ago. I can't find any place where it mentions specifically what kind of bacteria these are. However, here's an interesting item I found:
"One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria — before adding One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria, the water must be free of chlorine and chloramines so use AquaCleanse or First Defense to accomplish this. Make sure to turn off devices such as the protein skimmer and UV-sterilizer, and remove any filter socks for 48 hours after adding One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria. Do not add Waste-Away, Re-Fresh or Eco-Balance during the first 2 weeks of adding One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria."
So he only says not to use UV for 48 hours, which kind of implies it's fine to use UV after that.
I'm grabbing at straws here. At least it is looking somewhat better after our water change today!
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Post by Carl on Jan 30, 2013 12:12:15 GMT -5
I do not think the Dr. Tim's "One and Only" nitrifying bacteria is the problem and directions noting to turn off UV-C Sterilization for 48 hours is standard for this type of product (as with SeaChem Stability) As I noted earlier, it is Heterotrophic Bacterial products I advice against, and Dr. Tim's is not. Based on use of UV Sterilizers, I still feel this is not the problem. Once your tank is clear, I would recommend turning it back on. If the problem returns, my next suggestion (albeit difficult) is to attempt to remove as much Eco Complete as possible or move this UV with filter to another tank without the Eco Complete (if possible) see how it reacts there. It really comes down to a process of elimination, which is how I solved many problems in the past. Carl
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Post by tamara on Jan 30, 2013 13:10:43 GMT -5
Your suggestions are very sensible, although as you say, not quick and easy to do. At the moment, I'm really not expecting the problem to go away permanently from the water changes (although I'd love to be pleasantly surprised of course!)
I have emailed the people who make Eco Complete to ask if they have ever heard of this happening. I don't know if they would give me a straight answer but it doesn't hurt to ask.
All our tanks have Eco Complete in them, but I was planning on replacing the substrate in a 10-gallon tank soon with 1/2" of sand (for pygmy cories). So that could be done as an experiment. Actually I could do a before and after with that tank.
I was also thinking perhaps of running the UV in a 5 gallon bucket with aquarium water from the 72 (the current tank the UV is in) to see if the tank water turns grey in the bucket.
BTW another thing I have learned is that the particle size is extremely small. Hardly anything turned up on our microfiber cloth when we tried running our makeshift diatomagic. Also I poured over a gallon of tank water through a coffee filter and when it dried you couldn't see a trace of grey or black on it.
I've done an internet search for "invisible ink UV" and nothing useful has turned up.
Thanks again for all of your thoughtfulness and suggestions. You are really going above and beyond, as they say, and I do hope of course that we can get this thing resolved reasonably soon so we can all have more time for more fun projects!
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Post by Carl on Jan 30, 2013 13:20:11 GMT -5
If the problem does not go away with water changes, then the problem is clearly something else
If the problem does go away with the water changes, then we need to go to step two in testing Or this may indicate interaction of the UV with something added to your aquarium.
My guess is this is do to this likely being a coincidence since I have never seen this in 1000s of installations OR this is a some sort of rare combination of factors that includes the UV Sterilizer
Your very welcome. I am very curious though to figure out the exact cause, which is why a careful process of elimination is needed.
Carl
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Post by tamara on Jan 30, 2013 16:04:59 GMT -5
When I said I don't expect the problem to go away with water changes, I meant that I do expect the water to clear up but then what will happen when we plug in the UV again? If the UV is interacting with something in our tank, it seems unlikely for this to disappear through water changes (although of course I could be wrong, and hope I am).
It's just that since things improved after our first water change, then got worse when we plugged the UV back in, and then after we unplugged the UV it hasn't been getting worse, that's why I think something is going on involving the UV, although I haven't a clue what it could be.
Please note I am not knocking UV in general. I recognize this must be an extremely rare and unlikely occurrence. We are very much hoping we can use UV without this happening so our fish can reap the benefits. And it still could turn out that the UV had absolutely nothing to do with it.
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Post by billg71 on Jan 30, 2013 17:03:27 GMT -5
Tamara, This is really puzzling! One question: When you ran the powerhead with the UV in a bucket of water did you have it attached to the sponge filters? I'm thinking that when installing the UV you somehow disturbed the sponge filters enough to release some gunk from within them... Have you rinsed them in tank water since and are they clean? I'd have to agree with Carl, run the powerhead/sponges with the UV unplugged(electrically), do a couple more water changes and see if it clears up. It may take some time and patience but that'll eliminate any filtration issues. Then plug in the UV and see what happens. For the record, I'm running much the same setup as you: SunSun JP-023 powerhead with HydroSponge 3 on the intake and the 8-watt TMC UV. My substrate is 3/4" of Florite Black Sand and Onyx Black covered with 4 bags of Eco Complete. I've moved things around, moved plants, mounded the substrate, etc. and never seen anything more than a little cloudiness that cleared up in an hour or less. I don't think it's a substrate problem, I did a lot of research before making a decision on substrate and never read anything remotely like the problem you're suffering. Just a note on the weak output you're getting from the powerhead: As Carl said, you will definitely lose some flow, that unit doesn't have a lot of head pressure. But mine pushes about 30" through the TMC UV with around 80 gph flow rate. When I cleaned the filter last weekend and put everything back together I noticed I didn't seem to be getting the same flow as before but didn't check it out. Today I did a small water change and when I had my hand near the head I could feel water movement! Turned out the impeller cap(or whatever you call the thingie on the bottom) wasn't seated on the pump body well and water was escaping. I pushed it back into place and now I have the same flow as before. Just something to check... HTH and you get things sorted out soon! Bill
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Post by tamara on Jan 30, 2013 18:22:23 GMT -5
Thanks, Bill! I'm glad to know you are running UV with lots of Eco Complete and no problem. That makes that scenario much less likely, unless there is a 3-way combination at play somehow (something else we're using reacting with the Eco-Complete and then interacting with the UV).
I don't know. Any explanation we've come up with seems impossible, yet it's happening.
Aquarium gunk from the sponges was one of Kevin's first theories. However, when we did our first water change (following the onset of the problem) we cleaned all the sponges. They were indeed very dirty! However, after we got it all hooked back up again, including the UV, the problem initially got worse! Since then we've been running the double #3 sponge filter with the powerhead and strong flow (Kevin actually mechanically unhooked the UV filter as well as unplugging it) and it doesn't seem to clear up from running the filter. (At first I thought maybe it was clearing up but then I decided that was just wishful thinking.) The only thing that seems to help are the daily water changes (2 more since the first one). I would have thought that normal aquarium gunk would have been picked back up again by the sponges. Also, wouldn't normal gunk leave a trace on a coffee filter? I don't know, never tried it, it just seems like it would.
One thing we are going to try tomorrow.... I got a response from the guy at the mfr. of Eco Complete and he suggested running carbon. We took away our carbon near the beginning of the issue because it was one of our initial suspects. However, at this point, it may be worth trying increasing the carbon and seeing if that helps.
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Post by tamara on Jan 30, 2013 18:48:50 GMT -5
Here's a little detail: Today when we were doing our water change, the water in the white bucket looked a little more brown, and in the sun even a little reddish-brown, instead of pure grey or black. I don't know what it means if anything, but there it is. Could an algae die-off look like this?
Before this, we have not had sufficient algae to make the water look green or anything. It normally looks clear in the tank, and then typically there's a little yellowish tint when looking down through our tank water in the white bucket.
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Post by Carl on Jan 30, 2013 20:16:55 GMT -5
Yes, an algae die in the bucket can be reddish-brown, especially if the "algae" was not algae, rather cyanobacteria. See Cyanobacteria; Aquarium AnswersThis said, I have run UVs on tanks with cyanobacteria and not seen this dramatic of a color change Carl
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Post by billg71 on Jan 30, 2013 21:21:32 GMT -5
Tamara,
Just tossing some thoughts out to kick around:
If your sponge filters had been in the tank long enough to develop a good population of bacteria and you reduced the flow of nutrients to them by adding a lot of mechanical resistance in the system(the UV sterilizer) would the result be that a lot of the bacteria died off? That would account for the ammonia spike you experienced, the decay of a large amount of live organic material. Would their decay products color the water? Or would the reduction in filtration capacity encourage an algeal/ bacterial bloom?
From what I've read HOB filters aren't particularly noted for their bio filtration capacity, it seems likely to me that the majority of your bio filtration was from the sponges and you could have reduced that by reducing the flow.
Like I said, just tossing random thoughts out to see if they fly... Another random thought: by taking the UV totally out of the system you increase the flow rate through the sponge filter and encourage bacterial growth in it. What happens when you put it back? The flow of nutrients slow down, the bacteria that depend on those nutrient levels will die off. You might be setting yourself up for a "rinse and repeat" situation.
As a disclamer, I'm a totally green noob when it comes to aquaria in the 21st century. My last tank was 25 or so years ago and the state of the art in aquarium management has changed a lot since then. I'm struggling to get caught up but the basic principles and the scientific method haven't changed. I'd like to think that my observations and suggestions are valid but please note they have no reference to experience, it's all conjecture based on what I was taught way too many years ago about logic and the scientific method.
Like I said, just tossing out things you might want to consider.
Best, Bill
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Post by tamara on Jan 30, 2013 23:12:11 GMT -5
Hi Bill,
I think the change in flow through the sponge could indeed have caused a change in bacterial population in the sponge filters, and I agree that they were/are our primary bio filter. (In fact, the main reason we got them was from reading some of Carl's articles about how deficient HOB's can be!)
However, our water became dark grey within about 2 hours of hooking up and running the UV. This I think would be pretty fast for such a large die-off of bacteria in the sponge, just from a reduced water flow.
The small ammonia spike was measured the following morning, after the sponge filter was turned off all night. We didn't start the sponge up again until after the water was changed, the sponges (and other filters) were cleaned, and the UV was disconnected. I agree with you that turning off the sponge filter could have had an effect on ammonia. But the grey water was already present before we turned off the sponge filter (and didn't seem to get worse overnight.)
Thanks for your thoughts. Something like this can't happen without some cause, and hopefully we'll pin it down yet!
Carl,
I will read your article on cyanobacteria. Thanks.
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Post by tamara on Jan 30, 2013 23:14:44 GMT -5
Also, Bill, thanks for the tip on checking the powerhead to make sure water isn't slipping through where we don't want it. I'm really not used to using powerheads and it's possible this was happening without my noticing.
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Post by tamara on Jan 31, 2013 0:09:41 GMT -5
OK, a few notes after reading the cyanobacteria article:
1. Ours is not a slime, or at least our glass appears clear. Also, there is no scum. 2. We haven't noticed any funny odors with the aquarium. 3. UV can cause a bacterial die-off--but would these bacteria be transparent while alive, and then black/grey/brown only after dying? Alternatively could there be transparent bacteria that are killed by the UV, only to be consumed by other blooming brownish-blackish algae and/or bacteria?
BTW our fish continue to be just as happy as can be, so at least it's apparently non-toxic, in these concentrations anyway.
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Post by Carl on Jan 31, 2013 10:51:13 GMT -5
Bill; thanks for jumping in and adding your thoughts. This likely will take many 'heads' getting together Tamara; I have my doubts as per Cyanobacteria, but I threw this thought out based solely on what you observed in the water change bucket, as this is similar to tanks I have cleaned with Cyanobacteria. Otherwise, based on your observations/comments as well as the affect of the UV Sterilizer with Cyanobacteria do not match my observations of such use (not to say some "perfect storm" of events did not happen). Algae killed (including Cyanobacteria) that are not removed by mechanical filtration would be consumed by bacteria in your bio filter. Back to my "perfect storm" comment, if your bacterial colony was weak, especially if forced out by Heterotrophic Bacteria, this could result in a lack of normal response to an algae die off. I still have my doubts here though. I will again point out that while the use of products containing Heterotrophic Bacteria often results in no problems, however, there is always the chance that after use, the Autotrophic bacterial population is severely compromised, then a few weeks later the bio load is spiked by whatever factor and suddenly your aquariums bio filter cannot properly respond. This again is why I do not recommend products that contain Heterotrophic Bacteria. As an example, I was told by a friend in the business that he had used Eco Complete in an established tank so as to convert it to a planted aquarium. Later a few weeks later he added several fish and within days the ammonia spiked to 2 ppm. Please note I am not attempting to undermine the use of Eco Complete, as this same friend has used it with no problems, however his experience in this example is EXACTLY what I have experienced with similar timelines with the use of other products containing Heterotrophic BacteriaCarl
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Post by tamara on Feb 1, 2013 11:00:35 GMT -5
Yes, it's a "perfect storm" all right! I'm thinking I should maybe buy a lottery ticket this week and see if I can beat the odds there, too!
Thanks, Carl, for your input re. bacteria. It's OK that it doesn't seem like a good possibility, since nothing else does either! Yet one (or a combination) of these seemingly impossible causes must actually be the cause, unless there's something no one has thought of yet.
Here's an update:
Yesterday we decided to try using charcoal and skipping the water change. (The guy from Eco Complete recommended charcoal in a general sense.)
It's subjective, but both Kevin and I believe the charcoal has improved the tank at least as much as we would have expected from a water change! So long as this is true and not wishful thinking, this is a big relief. We really didn't have time for daily water changes this week. I'll try running the charcoal again today and we'll see what happens.
BTW we have no operational filter at the moment that is intended for use with large quantities of charcoal. So what are doing is running our good ol' diatomagic with a micro fiber cloth rubber-banded around the (damaged) permanent filter medium, whatever that thing is called, and maybe a cup or two of charcoal sitting in the bottom of the unit. When it's running there is enough current going through the charcoal that it causes a few pieces of charcoal to "dance" on the opposite side from the water intake.
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Post by Carl on Feb 1, 2013 12:34:04 GMT -5
The "perfect storm" theory is definitely what I am going with too. I would suggest activated carbon over charcoal as it is much more effective. See: Activated Carbon for Aquarium or Pond Use; Information, Use TableWhile I do not want to come off as attacking Eco-Complete, especially since they are being helpful, the more and more I think back with conversations I have had with others "in the business", as well as reading back my own writings I think this is part of the equation. Here is a quote from the Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle; Nitrification: "Another point is growth (which is why Heterotrophic bacteria are favored for cycling products); nitrifying (Autotrophic) bacteria will double in population every 15-24 hours under optimal growth conditions. Heterotrophic bacteria, on the other hand, can reproduce in as little as 15 minutes to 1 hour. Unfortunately research has shown that up to one million times more of these heterotrophic bacteria are required to perform a comparable level of ammonia conversion that is attained by true autotrophic nitrifying bacteria, in part due to the fact of Heterotrophic Bacteria to convert many organics into food. The use of only Heterotrophic Bacteria to cycle an aquarium (or pond) can result in a bio environment that does not contain the necessary Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria to rapidly adapt to changes in bio load either from added fish, wastes, or similar; thus often resulting in sudden spikes in ammonia or nitrites when these Heterotrophic bacteria cycling products are not added in a timely or regular schedule! The other danger is cloudy water.
For this reason products that contain only Heterotrophic Bacteria such as "Hagen Cycle" or even the popular Eco-Complete planted substrate SHOULD BE AVOIDED in some aquariums! As a side note, in a healthy established aquarium, the use of Eco-Complete likely will not have a major impact on the aquarium bio filter, however if the bio load is increased suddenly after use, this could lead to cloudy water or spikes in ammonia."Again, this is not to place the blame solely on this product, rather I believe its use, including the timing of everything has something to to do with this problem I think given time for Autotrophic Bacterial colonies to settle in as well as plant growth, the problem will disappear Carl
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Post by tamara on Feb 1, 2013 15:18:34 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply.
Actually, I misspoke--I am using activated carbon rather than charcoal. It's what we had on hand. I'm just in the habit of calling it "charcoal". That's one topic I just haven't previously explored.
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Post by billg71 on Feb 1, 2013 20:20:43 GMT -5
Tamara, Good to hear something is working(maybe?). Time will tell.. Since carbon is primarily a chemical filter and it hasn't had time to establish any bacterial colony it seems like it might be a chemistry problem totally unrelated to anything that went on in your tank before. Maybe something was chemically at a tipping point and the introduction of the UV along with the accompanying change in the existing bio-filtration system was just enough to ignite that "perfect storm" that you're dealing with? Keep running the carbon and see what happens. You definitely should go buy a lottery ticket! Hope things keep getting better! Best, Bill
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