Dying Zoa tank HELP!

[carveth]

New to forum -- 1st post. I've run out of what to do as I see all my Zoas die. Zoas are almost indestructible so embarrassing to even admit.

If I cannot keep a tank with primarily 11 Zoa frags and 3 small fish going, I might as well hang it up. The first 9 weeks they did fine. Only two Zoas are partially open now. All the others have been closed tight for 9 weeks. Some the polyps are flattening and parts dying. Others have died. I know polyps close-up at times, but a whole tank all at once?

I think the problem relates to an old test kit. Dah... seems obvious now, but I did not realize they had a shelf life. My old Salifert Magnesium kit had no date on it anywhere so I never thought about it. That old kit said the Seachem Reef salt and reef only had 650 Mag. So I dosed the tank to get to 1300, adding small amounts over the day over a 3 day period. ( I now have all new test kits.)

I assume my first dose of magnesium raised levels too high and knocked the coral for a loop. Then missing maintenance for two weeks plus powerhead and skimmer went off, stressed them more and they closed up. Then I hit them again with more magnesium (see history below). I assume most have been so stressed they will not recover. Is this a feasible conclusion?Something else going on? I almost hope that is the case for it gives me hope I can get new Zoas and go on with a good tank.

Because I overdosed, I started a regiment of water changes. I did two 25% over a three day weekend = about 44% new water. Waited 10 days and no change in corals. Did another 25%. Figure enough. Only 5% weekly water changes, clean skimmer, clean filter sock, scrape glass for last 5 weeks now. No improvement in corals. Actually getting worse. Parts of some have died off.

Magnesiium as been at 1200 for 6 weeks.

No hydrogen sulfide smell. Sand only 2 inches deep.


Current Tests: SG1.025 -- pH 8 -- Nitrate: not detectable -- Phosphate: 0.00ppm -- Alkalinity: 148 ppm = 8 dkH -- Magnesium: 1120mg/l -- Calcium: 378mg/l.

Next Step
Tests are good. I plan to just stay the course on weekly cleaning and 5% water changes = keep things constant. I am thinking of getting a few new Zoa frags. I am hopeful they will do fine and then I'll know the tank and water are OK. Make sense? Crazy?




Carveth's Reef History

Here is a summary of the first 19 weeks of my maintenance log.

24 June 2012 -- Started reef. All virgin sand and rock.

4 weeks -- Noted magnesium low and added supplement over a week. I thought magnesium was at 650 and dosed to get to 1300 (discovered later it was an out of date kit).

7.5 weeks – Green coralline started covering rocks after about the first week. Wanted some purple so added three plastic plates covered with purple coralline algae from Indo Pacific Sea Farms in Hawaii. All Zoa's doing well.

10 weeks -- I was lax and had not done maintenance in 2.5 weeks. 2 Zoa’s open 9 Zoa’s partly open or closed. Did 20% water change and cleaned all up. They never recovered. Added magnesium supplement. (still using old test kit)

11.25 weeks -- While I was gone for 6 days the powerhead in the tank and skimmer went off. Circulation in tank only 10X. All Zoa's were closed up.

13.25 weeks -- Discovered my magnesium kit was out of date and assumed my earlier magnesium supplement had overdosed.

14 weeks -- To get magnesium back down & correct anything else, over two days I did water changes resulting in 44% new water. That put magnesium at 1200.

16 weeks -- No change in Zoa's so did a 25% water change. Seems like in a 50 gallon tank with 40 gallon sump (est. 60 total gallons water) and only 11 Zoa frags and three small fish, I should have seen some kind to response to reducing the magnesium to 1200 and all the water changes.

20 weeks (Nov 11, 2012) – Two Zoas partially open. All others totally closed. Some polps have died off. Tests: SG1.025 -- pH 8 -- Nitrate: not detectable -- Phosphate: 0.00ppm -- Alkalinity: 148 ppm = 8 dkH -- Magnesium: 1120mg/l -- Calcium: 378mg/l. So decided to do no more big changes and let the coral have a steady state (5 weeks so far). Did weekly only: 5% water change, clean skimmer, clean filter sock, scrape glass. Zoa's have been closed for 9 weeks now



TANK FACTS:

Tank started new late June 2012
Three foot, 50 gallon tank with 40 gallon sump. Total real water = 60 gallons. Water 15 inches above sand.

All new in tank = 35 lbs rocks; 30 lbs (2” depth) Tropic Eden Aragonite Tonga Reef Flake sand.

All water from well and run through RO/DI. Stored in food safe container.

Seachem Reef salt; mixed with powerhead for 24 hours before put in tank.

Only lighting has been two Aqua Ray LED Lights -- XG 1500 "Ocean Blue". 3” above water. 1st 19 weeks, Blues were on 13 Hours, whites on 12 Hours. Just last week I reduced to 8 hours on whites and 9 hours on blues (half hour before and after the whites).

Carbon/GFO and x-silicate mixed together. Run 24/7 in own canister. (Stop using x-silicate two weeks ago.)

Euro-Reef Protein skimmer run 24/7

Weekly = 5% water change; clean skimmer; clean filter sock

Maintain a detailed log of test results and thoughts.

Water movement = 31X of water in tank.

Started tank with Dr. Tom’s One-And-Only. Worked great. I have had no bad algae outbreaks.

"Reef Cleaners" Custom package

Light coating of Green coralline over most rock. Mid- August added three purple coralline covered plates out of Hawaii in sump near pump intake. Seeing appearance on rocks.

All Coral are frags. Coral & fish all from Vivid. (All dipped when received)
Eagle Eye -- Zoanthus
Orange Bam Bam -- Zoanthus
Radioactive -- Zoanthus
Dragonfly -- Zoanthus
Hulk -- Zoanthus
Amor of God Zoanthid -- Palythoa
Atomic -- Sympodium
ORA Green Leather Toadstool -- Sarcophyton
Blue Snowflake -- Clavularia
Neon Clove Polyp -- Calvularia
Sun Polyp (never has opened) -- Tubastrea aurea

Vivid Favia (died) -- Favites
Aussie Hulk (50% died back) -- Acanthastrea lordhowensis

FISH
Blue Green Chromis -- Chromis viridis
Ocellaris Clownfish -- Amphiprion ocellaris
Orangespot Diamond Goby -- Valencienna strigata

Fish feed flakes 3x per day with auto feeder on a timer.

[mistiking]

Carveth,

Have you checked your Iodide level? You may need to add some Reef Iodide, as it is essential for reef tanks.

Other than that I have no idea what could be causing this....

Good Luck!

[Carl]

carveth;
Welcome to Everything Aquatic!

Misti has a good point.
zoanthids as with all anemones require iodine/iodide

My approach has been the simple way as per SeaChem Iodide of adding 1 mL per 50 gallons once every other day or twice per week

Your point in the customer service email that these were fine for the first 9 weeks indicates that we are missing something.
While not a purely scientific test, my observation is that usually most reef inhabitants will decline well within the first 6 weeks if there is a major issue with your aquarium such as high nitrate, phosphates, poor lighting, etc.

You might sample your gravel (stir, or actually dig out a deep 'specimen' of substrate and perform a 'snif test'
See:
Hydrogen Sulfides in Aquariums

Sorry about my inference in the email response that these are relatively easy reef specimens to keep. My point was not talk down, but rather why I too am rather perplexed by the issue.

I would suggest truing the first two suggestions.
Also I would return your lights to the previous on/off schedule

Carl

[carveth]

Misti & Carl Thanks for the quick response. I just added the iodine. I measured the gravel and it is mostly 1-2 inches. The deepest is 2 inches where the powerhead pushes it up. I took several gravel samples off the bottom at the deepest spots and could detect no smell. I have seen no blackness in the gravel either. I think I will add a light stirring of the gravel each week when I clean to help keep it oxygenated.

[Carl]

Nov 20, 2012 18:22:03 GMT -5 carveth said:

I think I will add a light stirring of the gravel each week when I clean to help keep it oxygenated.

I think this is a good idea!
I note this too in: Aquarium Cleaning; Methods

Another thought I had (after thinking about this while going about my work), is about any lids you might have.
Make sure that they are as clean as possible; no salt or calcium build up.
As well, I switched many glass or acrylic lids to polycarbonate many years back on several reef aquariums, resulting in much improvement of many specimens.

I note this here:
Aquarium Lighting; Light Penetration

Carl

[carveth]

Carl,

Well, I took a little different approach to lids. I like hiding the lights to focus into the aquarium and keep the glare out of our eyes. I also am a big believer in the importance of air exchange, so I don’t like lids. Thirdly, I wanted to mount a fan over the tank to control temps in summer through evaporation. The fan and heater are tied to a Ranco temperature control.

So to accomplish all this I made a 9 inch tall, three sided cover with no top and no back. It is very easy to lift off and set aside as I work on the tank. Fish cannot jump out the backside for all along the back I have a surface overflow feeding into the down tube. The open top is great for air exchange. Each AquaBeam 1500 XG light is mounded on an upside down “L” swing-arm hanging over the tank and attached to the back of the aquarium stand. I can swing either light out of the way to work on the tank. I have no cover over the water, so the light quality and amount is not affected. Every once in a while, I wipe of the covers on the AquaBeams with a damp cloth.

[Carl]

Could you attach a picture of your tank top, lights set up?

Also, has anything been sprayed around the house during the time period in question, this includes dog/cat flea sprays?

Carl

[carveth]

Carl,

Thanks for still thinking about this. I am still mystified.

We have no animals. We have done nothing involving spraying like painting or rug cleaning.

As part of my weekly maintenance, I did a complete set of tests this morning. All came out normal.

I've put a new item on my weekly maintenance. I got a turkey baster and I'm blowing out the rock. Boy, bunches of detritus.

I've added a montage of photos on the canopy as you requested. It includes some text to describe what is in the photos.

Attachments:

[Carl]

Thanks for sharing these pictures; VERY well designed IMO!

I do have a few more questions:

(1) Have you stated dosing iodine?

(2) How have your fish been acting, any issues?

(3) Is a closeup picture of one of your zoanthids possible?

(4) Dis you clean/rinse your sand prior to use and was this new (from Tropic Eden), not "used"?

(5) Have you used carbon or any chemical filter media?

(6) If I read correctly, your purple coralline is spreading despite this issue with the zoas?

Sorry for so many questions rather than answers, just trying to put together so many pieces.

Carl

[bikeguy33]

There are alot of great educated guesses here and aside from what has already been said i have little to add. But, years ago i had a client treat his fish for oodinium. He used a copper based medication and all his corals and anenomies did the same thing that yours are.. Is this even remotely a possibility? As well...are your frags from a rputible source? 9 weeks is awhile, but depending on the degree of healthiness it can take this long to show signs. Also, have you been chasing a ph? Inverts are very sensitive to changes....and is your well water consistant, or does it change seasonally? Like carl, i apologise for more questions than answers....but othewise i am just grasping at straws...

[carveth]

Bikeguy33,

Thanks so much for taking the time to give me some ideas to think about. Lots of times, what is obvious to one is not to another. Let me think about each item you brought up. You brought up some good questions.

I have never used copper. I’m the original owner of the 50 gal tank and 40 gallon breeder tank in sump and neither has had copper in it. I did use Coral Rx Pro coral dip on the coral frags.

I got all the frags from Vivid Aquarium in LA. I happened to visit their store a while back, talked with the owner, and was very impressed with the quality of their stock.

What makes them being closed for 10 weeks now, really confusing to me, is that the first 9 weeks they were just fine.

pH has been right around 8 all the time. I did overdose Magnesium at one point due to an out of date kit. I have always though that that is what may have started all this. Mag is now at 1200-1300 and holding fine. Calcium and alkalinity is steady too. Tests yesterday, 30 Nov 2012: SG1.026 -- pH 8 -- Nitrate: not detectable -- Phosphate: 0.05ppm -- Alkalinity: 158 ppm = 8.8 dkH -- Magnesium: 1215mg/l -- Calcium: 367mg/l.

Yes, well water can be a problem, especially with septic tanks in the area. That is why I got a 5 stage RO unit -- filter, coarse carbon, fine carbon, RO filter and finally a DI at the end. Had to get a pressure booster pump to make it work right. I have TDS meters on the system so I know I am using only 0 TDS in all the water.

Keep the questions coming. I have run out of ideas and I'm in desperate need of new perspectives.

[carveth]

Carl,

1) Have you stated dosing iodine?
Yes. ESV Potassium Iodide 1% Solution. Directions 1 drop/gal/week. I calculated 60 gallons between tank and sump less rock and gravel. I have done twice so far. Last time yesterday. Put in return pump section of sump. A onetime dose each week.

(2) How have your fish been acting, any issues?
The fish have been great. Blue Green Chromis appears to be growing. Ocellaris Clownfish also doing well. He may have grown too. Orangespot Diamond Goby goes through the gravel like a trooper. His belly does not look as “full” as the other two so I have been dropping in some sinking pellets but he is not the smartest. If he sees them coming down he grabs but once they hit the bottom he no longer sees them. Fun to see the Nassarius snails immediately stick up their antenna and clean up what he misses. The hermit crabs come a running too. Also, at the time of the coral closing, I saw no change in fish attitude.

(3) Is a closeup picture of one of your zoanthids possible?
Attached.

(4) Dis you clean/rinse your sand prior to use and was this new (from Tropic Eden), not "used"?
I wanted to make sure there were no problems like that. So I got everything, sand and dry rock, new. I dumped all my old sand away and put only new sand it. When I got the coral I wanted to make sure I didn’t introduce stuff like bubble algae, etc. so only got frags to minimize that. And yes, I rinse both the sand and the rock before putting in. The sand I put in a 5 gallon bucket and stirred around with my hands. The rock I soaked in saltwater in a bucket first. The buckets are food buckets I have used only for aquarium for years

(5) Have you used carbon or any chemical filter media?
Yes, I have used three items, carbon, GFO and X-Silicate, in a separate canister, packed so water must flow through and not around. It is in the sump on its own small pump. I change every 4-6 weeks. I mix all three to prevent tumbling of the GFO. The mix = 6oz Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. Super Activated Research Grade Carbon, 1.5 ounce Granular Ferric Oxide High Capacity Phosphate Reducer, 6 oz X-Silicate 1000. Yesterday when I replace I did not include the X-silicate. Not sure needed and trying to eliminate anything that might vaguely have an effect.

(6) If I read correctly, your purple coralline is spreading despite this issue with the zoas?
Yes. I always have gotten green coralline in my reefs. The same with the tank too. I wanted some purple but did not want to get rock from a store for fear it may introduce other stuff. So at week 7.5 (for reference Zoas all closed on week 11), I bought three 2"x3' plates covered with purple coralline algae I bought from Indo Pacific Sea Farms in Hawaii. Placed in dimly lit areas with good flow. Immediate problems. The snails and crabs started eating it all off. They even found one on top of a powerhead. Then hung off sump return flow jets at the top of tank. Of course, too much light and they started to fade. So I finally moved into the return pump section of the sump. The purple is slowly taking hold on all rocks. I can see a steady increase. One section of rock was not getting any purple growth so I directed the return jets toward them and they too now have a light coating of purple starting in places.

Sorry for so many questions rather than answers, just trying to put together so many pieces.
I was elated when I saw all the questions! I am so thankful to have someone of your caliber to even take the time to help me. It’s awesome. I’m in a smaller town with no other reefer locally to talk with. The nearest saltwater store is a 5 hour round trip, so the more questions the better as far as I’m concerned.

I am always trying to think of possible problems. In desperation I am re-looking at everything.

I was thinking… could it be the tank, sump or plumbing? Both this tank and the 40 gallon breeder tanks are older. I have used for Cichlids and reefs. I’ve never used any copper in them. The silicon seals are still clear. When I set up I cleaned only with water and a razor blade, no soaps.

I used only the white water PVC in the plumbing. I do have a schedule 40 grey gate valve on the down tube but got from a fish store so I assume it is OK. (I stay away from the grey electrical tubing.)

Bought a flexible hose going to the sump from the local saltwater store so I would be sure it was reef safe. Use clear vinyl tubing for the return.

Skimmer sets on ceiling fluorescent light egg crate.

Pumps made for aquariums. Eheim return pump. Ran carbon/GFO canister on old Maxi-jet until burned out last month. I replace it with a small Eheim.

The surface skimmer that runs along the top of the tank and into a down tube section I made out of new acrylic. To the best of my knowledge I used aquarium silicon. Even if, somehow I got some other type of silicon mixed in, I’d guess the coral would have had problems way before 11 weeks when they closed up. Also on earlier reefs, I don’t recall any problems with coral like this.

Going back to your fumes idea, the only thing new we have is the reef stand itself. The rug is old. We’ve not repainted anywhere in the house.

Question: Part of me says to not introduce any new coral until I figure this out. Another part of me says maybe whatever the cause was may be gone. The existing corals may be so shocked they just will never recover. We may be waiting for changes that are never going to happen. I am thinking of buying a few new Zoa frags. I realize the risk. If the problem is not really solved, I could lose them but it seems to be the only way to know for sure. I am a little optimistic for the Hulk Zoa that had half of it dye is now opening. Also, it seems like we have gone through everything that could be wrong.

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[Carl]

Question: Part of me says to not introduce any new coral until I figure this out. Another part of me says maybe whatever the cause was may be gone. The existing corals may be so shocked they just will never recover. We may be waiting for changes that are never going to happen. I am thinking of buying a few new Zoa frags.
I realize the risk. If the problem is not really solved, I could lose them but it seems to be the only way to know for sure. I am a little optimistic for the Hulk Zoa that had half of it dye is now opening. Also, it seems like we have gone through everything that could be wrong.

Your point that the existing corals may be in too much shock to ever recover is where I lean. Although I have seen bounce backs, often when I came across a new client with problems, I could not save many corals or anemones, unlike the fish. For whatever reason, I have found that once one of these reef dwellers goes downhill past a certain point, there is no stopping. This also counts my own mistakes too.

Another example, is splitting/cutting of anemones (usually BTA).
While I have not done this method of "fragging" anemones, I know of those who have, and when it goes well it goes well and when it goes bad it goes bad; no middle ground of the anemone doing poorly, then recovering with some "TLC".
My point is sharing this is it is often difficult to recover many corals and anemones once they have gone past "the point of no return" (IMHO).

The good news, is hopefully once you try some others, maybe your will be more successful.
As well your fish are doing well (good sign), and more importantly your purple coralline is spreading which I have always found to be a good sign of tank health (I know of many who have failed here). While this is an observation on my part (not scientific), I think there still is merit to it.
As per the pictures, I think your rock looks better now than earlier

I would consider trying again with maybe different softies.
Experiment around with placement shortly after introduction, as sometimes too much or too little light can make a lot of difference.

Also make sure to dip your new zoas or others in Reef Dip (you might even try the dying zoas)

Back to another question; Do you possibly have some Zoanthid-eating Nudibranchs


Carl

[carveth]

Carl,
I took all the coral out and dipped. I saw no little critters come off. The coral all looked pretty sick, even before the dip.

I just took the 5 hour trip to our reef store and bought a Helio Fungia Plate coral. It looked really healthy. They had for several weeks, so I figured it had recuperated from any transport problems. We brought home, acclimated, dripped and added to our tank. They thought it would be a good one to test with, figuring it is totally different from the Zoas, as you suggested. Now to wait and see how it all works out.

Thanks so much for sticking with me on this and racking your brain on possible problems. Hopefully this Fungia will do fine and I can proceed with the tank. I’ll let you know.

[Carl]

Hopefully this new 'critter' will work out.

Can you share some pictures?

BTW, your welcome, as well I look at this as a learning experience for me too, and hopefully this forum thread will help future readers as while this forum is not all that active for posts, it has very high readership.

Carl

[carveth]

Pic as requested. Helio Fungia Plate coral. Photo taken three days after introducing. Been five days now and still the same. Doesn't appear to me to be fully inflated but then it is new to the reef.

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[Carl]

This appears to be the Long Tentacle version which is a bit more difficult than the ST version.

This would best be placed on the sandy bottom of your aquarium or build a sandy reef withing your live rock/reef structure.

Only moderate light is needed, so this again should be OK for bottom placement (assuming you have no predatory 'creatures' in the sand).

Another question comes to mind;
What is your specific gravity?

Fish do quite well at low SG such as 1.019, but many corals/anemones do not and prefer 1.023- 1.025

Carl

[carveth]

Specific gravity has been a constant at 1.025.

Now it is on a rock about half way up, so about 7 inches below the surface and the AquaBeam 1500's are about 3 inches off the surface. I will move to the bottom on a small rock all of its own I will bury the rock in the sand.

Predators -- I only have snails and hermit crabs.

[Carl]

Dec 10, 2012 11:43:57 GMT -5 carveth said:

Now it is on a rock about half way up, so about 7 inches below the surface and the AquaBeam 1500's are about 3 inches off the surface. I will move to the bottom on a small rock all of its own I will bury the rock in the sand..

Hopefully this will at least be the answer for this new coral

Carl

[carveth]

Carl,

I was hopeful for a while… The Helio Funga plate coral has been in the tank since Dec 4th (5 weeks). I have not been able to get it to eat (krill) but is looks much the same. I am just elated it has survived.

Before Christmas I added three corals. Acclimated to water and treated with RX coral dip per instructions. The Sprung Stunner died in one week. The Lobophilla looked good the first week but suddenly died the end of the second week. The third coral was a Favis red-green brain. It did fine for the first two weeks but is now having problems. A couple of sections are no longer concave and have "swollen" up (center of photo). Assume signs of trouble - death? The same old, same old, except the Helio Funga lives.

Thoughts… The Sprung Stunner died quickly and after I had done a stir of the bottom and blowout of rocks. (I do both with a baster into the rocks and straight down onto the sand bed.) Lobophilla was great the first week but it faired the same right after I did a weekly stir and blowout. Is this a cause and effect, I do not know. In both cases I did the cleaning process and left home for the weekend, coming back and finding them dead. Also, the Stunner had a small finger nail piece fall off when I first added. I put it to one side of the tank and it fell vertically in a crevice. It is still alive. Maybe the stir - blowout settles stuff on top that kills the coral. It definitely creates a cloud in the water. The small Stunner is sideways and didn't have anything settle on it. Maybe Carl, your instincts were right, and there is something in the gravel. Not enough food for crabs and snails? They dying off? But nitrates and phosphates are none existent. The sand and rock were new and dry when I built the reef so no residuals from a previous tank.

Assume something bad in gravel so early this week I vacuumed all sand to get detritus out verses stirring it up into the water column. Added bottle (2 ounce = 60 gallon treatment) of Dr. Tim's Waste-Away. Weekly clean of skimmer, changed filter sock and scraped glass. Changed 12.5% (7.5 gallons) of water this time because that is what it took to totally vacuum the sand. Normally I do 5% each week. Added 50 drops potassium iodide. The Helios plate coral is doing fine. More tolerant? The Lobophilla as shown no signs of improvement and I can see one edge where the coral has retreated (bottom right side in photo). I can see the progression daily.

I have about one inch of 1-2mm sand on the bottom. Maybe I should just take all the sand out? Replace? Take it all out and rinse in fresh saltwater and only put about a 0.5” back in? Still does not seem like that would be enough to so quickly kill the coral. Not a happy new year.

In desperation I was thinking of an option that would eliminate as much of my current equipment and just start all over. I have a 40 gallon breeder (only an inch shorter than my 50 gallon) I could drill for plumbing. A new tank would eliminate any possibly of silicon or other type of contaminants. I could get all new rock and sand. I could get new salt (SeaChem Reef now) thinking I did dump the new bucket of salt out on a tarp to thoroughly mix up and put back in bucket. Maybe something in tarp got into the salt. That would only leave the sump and water. The water is RO/DI from a well so I assume OK. But that would mean many hundreds dollars more and still may not be the solution. Not knowing the real problem makes it very hard to address.

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