destah
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by destah on Apr 14, 2012 8:27:16 GMT -5
I have 5 tanks, 3 of which have 0 ammonia. 2 others are continuously reading at .25 ppm. Nitrites remain at 0, nitrates between 10-15. These reading have been the same for 6 days now. I am using Prime and Stability daily, and both filitration systems have purigen and matrix. Neither tank has a high bioload, just a few baby mollies in each, though there are some snails and a few shrimp in each tank- the shrimp being the major concern here, since they do NOT handle ammonia well. I have been waiting for some nitrites to show up, and it just isn't happening. I understand that as long as I use the prime, the ammonia is not toxic. But I want to FIX the problem, not just sugar coat it with prime forever. Oh, these tanks have been set up for about a year each, and there have been no complete filtration changes or anything that would reduce my bacteria. I have been doing small water changes almost daily, as well. Both tanks are well planted, and I have CO2 in one of the tanks. Other stats (same in both tanks): pH 7.6 GH: 9 KH: 5 I know this is the place to go to help me understand what is going on better- the last time I had a problem, I learned more then I have learned in that 12 years of owning tanks! And I now own almost the complete line of seachem products
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Post by babygeige on Apr 14, 2012 12:11:27 GMT -5
That is a frustrating problem! .25 isn't great, but it should be relatively easy to solve. I see you've been doing small water changes daily, have you tried larger ones? It may just be a matter of a few days of 30-50% water changes to get it back down to zero. Also double check for any rotting food, plant, or animal matter. There may be something stuck under a decoration. Baby fish need food often, but you have to be careful to not feed too much at once, or leftovers can cause problems. Someone else might have other suggestions as well. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
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destah
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by destah on Apr 14, 2012 12:22:57 GMT -5
I hwent through and took out any little dead plant parts I could find a few days ago. Will do it again as soon as I post this. I am hesitant to do larger water changes, due to the shrimp. I have only had the shrimp a few weeks, and have read that they are super sensitive to any changes, and so don't want to end up changing pH, or temp or anything drastically by a larger water change. With my 10 gallon, I am just taken 1 gallon out a few times a day. The babies are a few months old, so I am feeding them 2x a day, and not very much at all (all traces of food gone in bout a minute).
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Post by Carl on Apr 14, 2012 12:41:17 GMT -5
I agree with Babygeige's advice. One question is your mode of testing ammonia, as most test kits test ALL ammonia (NH3 and NH4), however it is NH3 that is toxic. Generally at your pH ammonia will be as NH3 unless converted, which Prime will do. So it may be some of the converted ammonia you are testing. The SeaChem Ammonia Alert ONLY tests for NH3, so if you do not have this, you might consider utilizing this test device. As babygeige noted, this is a very low number, even for shrimp, so while a bit frustrating, I would not be overly concerned and give it "time". Maybe also use the Prime only for water changes and truly high ammonia levels (at least 1 ppm) Carl
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destah
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by destah on Apr 14, 2012 14:08:23 GMT -5
That seachem test is one of the few things they make I don't own. I will own it soon! My test is testing for both NH3 and NH4, and I am thrilled you gave me a link to buy the seachem test- that is actually something I was wondering about, since I'm using prime- I'd like to know how much "bad" ammonia is there, not just the amount of both kinds. I need some more wonder shells, as well, anyway, so I will do some shoppin!. I am glad to know it's not too bad for the shrimp, I have read such horror stories about shrimp/ammonia.... I will just continue doing the water changes, and not freak out too much over my little bit of ammonia... thanks to both of you!
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destah
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by destah on Apr 14, 2012 16:07:07 GMT -5
I have a question I just remembered- I have often wondered about. When you have ammonia, and you use prime, it changes ammonia's form. Does it change permanently, or does it turn back into the toxic form after a certain amount of time?
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Post by Carl on Apr 15, 2012 10:36:07 GMT -5
This is a good question that I do not have a factual answer for.
My observation is that even at a higher pH, it stays bound in its NH4 ion form, however I have not performed a controlled test nor read of one (although such a test may exist) that uses controlled tanks where several factors are put into play such as the addition or lack of more NH3 as well as drastic pH shifts, etc.
I will do some research to see if SeaChem has any such literature
BTW, sorry for the slow response to your question
Carl
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Post by parker002 on Apr 16, 2012 5:57:01 GMT -5
Have you had any luck getting this taken care of? I strongly recommend the Ammonia Alert. Not only does it isolate toxic NH3 but it's also a continuous test, sitting in your tank and requires no work on your part other than to look at it a few times a day.
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destah
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by destah on Apr 16, 2012 9:13:23 GMT -5
I bought the test Carl suggested, it's on it's way now. I just tested the 2 tanks- my 10 G is sitll at 0.25, and my 20 is now at 0.5 I went to the pet store, and bought a fluval 205 canister filter for the 20 (I had a whisper ex30), and put the whisper on the 10 gallon (which had a smaller filter on it). So, both tanks have an upgraded filter, as well. I kept the same media in both filters, was also able to add some new to the fluval, since there is so much room for media. Not sure why there is a spike in the ammonia for the 20 gallon. Makes me wonder if both tanks have a snail that crawled deep in the gravel and died, or something, since they are both so heavily planted and have few fish. You'd think with the increased filtration, matrix, and purigen, it would be getting better, not worse. Will just keep doing the daily water changes and wait for things to get better, I guess. Really appreciate all the advice!
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Post by parker002 on Apr 16, 2012 10:49:23 GMT -5
It would have to be a pretty BIG snail. My daughter has a 14G heavily-planted tank with a ZooMed Nano 511 canister filter and she never shows ammonia despite having thousands of snails and a dozen or so fish.
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destah
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by destah on Apr 16, 2012 17:41:57 GMT -5
Here's what started my concern over the ammonia..... I am new to being a shrimp owner. I bought 20 red cherry shrimp (online) 3-4 weeks ago. They arrived healthy and happy. I put them in my 10 gallon tank, and they were happy for a few days. Then they started dying. I would literally watch them die. They'd be happy, then kinda lie on their side twitching their arms (can't remember the correct term) and then die. I moved a few into a 20 gallon tank. Out of those, a few died pretty quickly, but then the last couple lived, and are still ok. I tested everything, and it appeared ok, other them 0.25 ppm ammonia and I got 10 more rcs super cheap, so I bought them, figuring I'd try again. Oh, acclimating them, I am taking about 45-60 minutes, go really slow. They again arrived happy (from a different seller). I again put them in my 10 gallon ( I prefer to not have them in my other tanks, as they all have c02 injection) It's been 2 days, and once again they are dying-just pulled out 2 dead ones, and there is one flailing around as we speak. I just took out the ones I could find, and am acclimating them slowly to go to the 20 as we speak. I am completely clueless as to why they are dying. Since my parameters are ok, I had wondered if they first batch was "bad" somehow...but now I know it must be something in my tank. Paramters are as follows pH 7.6 temp 75 GH 12 (little high, but have read it shouldn't be a problem....) KH 7 Ammonia 0.25 ppm, used prime for it nitrite 0 nitrate 10 copper 0 have a wondershell in the tank, as well as a 3 baby mollies (about an inch long), a few each of tylo, nerite and baby apple snails, and 2 inch long oto's. Over the back filter has purigen, matrix, carbon, a little bit of a phosphate remover. It's also planted, has some java fern, anacharis, pennywort, wisteria, and anubia in it. Gravel was well washed before it was put in there, and that was months ago. That's all that's in it. If you've happened to read my other post, about the ammonia that is in this tank (and how it isn't going away), the dying shrimp are why I was initially so concerned about it. I am getting so very frustrated, because everything I read about these shrimp says how easy they are to care for, and if they are dying you have major problems in your tank. What am I doing wrong? Help!!! Oh- forgot to mention- the parameters in the 20g I am putting them in are exactly the same...media is the same as well. I am feeding my molly babes HBH tropical flake frenzy. One of the very last ingredients listed is copper proteinate...could this possible be enough copper to kill them? I am assuming copper wouldn't show up in the water as all the food is eaten quickly and thus wouldn't dissolve into the water? Or am I totally grasping at straws? THey do get a tiny shred of an algae wafer every couple days, too.... I do also give small doses of flourish comp 1-2x week in both tanks. In the 20g, I use pretty much all of the flourish ferts....have read that they are just fine to use, and also that they will kill all shrimp.... I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread or just keep going with this one...
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Post by Carl on Apr 16, 2012 19:44:32 GMT -5
Sorry to read about your shrimp difficulties I am glad you posted your copper numbers, as this can be a problem, but even then I have seen shrimp in both marine and freshwater survive trace amounts of copper. As for the ammonia, I seriously doubt this is the issue either since for one this is not a number that is toxic to anything I have ever observed (again including marine tanks). As well, the use of Prime would immediately detoxify even this small amount. Have you tested the pH and ammonia of the shipping bag upon arrival? A sudden change in PH can be a problem. Also, although you purchased your shrimp at two different retailers, whose to say (especially if local) that they do not use the same wholesale vendor! It is possible that the shrimp were already weak from truly high ammonia exposure or other chemical poisoning. See if you can find out both retailers suppliers, and then also maybe try a different retailer, maybe online. Suzie Q here at EA might know know a private breeder to try as well Carl
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destah
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by destah on Apr 16, 2012 20:32:00 GMT -5
After I posted, I did a ton (more) reading online about shrimp. I kinda have a feeling it is from the shipping. Both sellers were "personal" breeders, not stores, but that doesn't mean much. The 2nd shipment was shipped with little/no insulation from maryland to wisconsin, and it's been in the 50's, so that is a big temp difference. I did test the pH of the 2nd shipment- was 7 to my 7.6, didn't test the ammonia in that water, though. Prob would have been wise- would have made it a non-question as to why they were dying if there was a high amount! There is a forum "petshrimp.com", I didn't post, just did a lot of reading- the main guy there says that ANY fertilizer is bad for shrimp, and there was someone with .25 ammonia, and he swore that would kill shrimp off. The prime should make the ammonia issue null, though...and I guess I'll just lay off on ferts for a bit. I will gladly take a suggestion as to who to buy from, and I am doing a lot of looking on aquabid, looking for sellers with perfect feedback, and ones that seem knowledgeable and actually care. Thanks for your input, Carl, you are always on the ball with a response!
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Post by parker002 on Apr 17, 2012 8:23:28 GMT -5
I doubt the copper in the food would be an issue because of the form it's in. In fact, I've read several places that invertebrates REQUIRE some copper for proper circulatory health.
I'd be more concerned about the effect of fertilizer, particularly trace ferts that contain copper. Even then, I wouldn't be overly concerned with that either since the amount of copper isn't really high enough to be toxic.
I've kept quite a few shrimp but don't have any now for a reason - they're FRAGILE. I know that's not very good advice but that's my observation. Even in a completely stable tank, we've had them just die for no good reason. They don't display symptoms like a fish either, which makes it doubly hard.
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destah
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by destah on Apr 17, 2012 9:21:29 GMT -5
I really want to keep shrimp, but I am discovering what you said is very true- they are fragile. I may just try to get over wanting shrimp....maybe find another type of fish to concentrate on instead! One that doesn't keel over constantly!
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Post by parker002 on Apr 17, 2012 10:17:10 GMT -5
My daughter initially wanted shrimp because of their "uniqueness".
She now has snails and Kuhli loaches and is more than satisfied.
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destah
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by destah on Apr 20, 2012 8:38:43 GMT -5
I have 3 shrimp left in my 20 G, think they are quite happen. I am not adding anything as far as ferts go, and keeping the c02 a little lower then usual. We'll see how they do. About the ammonia, I am thoroughly confused. I remember one of Carl's articles saying that sometimes messing with things to much can make things worse, so I have been doing the water changes, and that's it. Yesterday I checked the ammonia level in all 5 tanks...and all 5 were positive. None were over 1ppm, my 10 gallon is almost at 0, the highest is 0.5. 0 nitrites in all tanks. I am unsure as to why all my tanks are apparently cycling? Would changing the hardness of you water (GH) kill off bacteria and cause your tank to cycle? I just thought of that, I know a big change in pH can do that, but haven't read of GH change doing it. Other that that, not sure why- especially since I use matrix and purigen in all tanks. Last summer, when I had an issue with some dying fish, and I first posted on here, and ended up reading almost all of Carl's articles. I learned soooo much, and haven't had a bad reading since. I am sadly getting rid of most of the inhabitants of one of my tanks this weekend (friend is taking them- they are eating all my plants), so I can spread the bioload- that should help the issue, I hope...and patience...
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Post by Carl on Apr 20, 2012 9:52:22 GMT -5
I have seen/observed small spikes in ammonia in cycled aquariums (& ponds), so as long as these do not exceed .5 I would not be overly concerned. It is also noteworthy that I have observed different readings between different test kits, once that if I remember correctly both were the same brand. In a test I performed years ago with a couple of ponds (I know not an aquarium, but the same bio cycling goes on in a pond, plus ponds have the added issues of outside debris getting into the system); I first tested the pond ammonia level, then stirred the pond bottom and tested immediately AND a day later. The tests a day later were positive for an ammonia spike. BTW; Thanks for reading my articles Carl
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destah
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by destah on Apr 20, 2012 11:22:15 GMT -5
You're articles are wonderful! Though my hubby may not agree...since my first post, and reading your articles, I now have tons of live plants, co2 injection...t-2 and led's....2 more fish tanks...tons of new products....not that it's your fault, but it really got me back into the hobby, made me realize how much more there was to it then I was doing. You know- that experiment actually makes sense. I have to work in a bit, and am going to be gone most of the weekend as well, so I will forego the water changes and test again on Monday. I will be near a pet store, maybe I will buy another ammonia test- I haven't, since most of them I see are the same brand, but I will give it a try.
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destah
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by destah on May 7, 2012 12:55:19 GMT -5
Figured I'd give an update on how things are going. I bought a new NH3/NH4 test...and it should my tanks were negative. Then I received the seachem stick in tank test, and it said the NH3 was negative, as well. It was a relief to know that I didn't have a problem; especially since I didnt' know WHY I would have ammonia. Also, I continued with mini water changes, to rid the tanks of any fertilizers, and have bought more red cherry shrimp. They are all doing well. That, also, is a relief! I would like to put wondershells in the shrimp tanks, but am scared to. Shrimp are so darn sensitive, I am not sure if there is something in them that would be detrimental to them. If any of you know the answer, that would be great, but if not, I just won't put one in. So thanks for all the advice, figured I'd let you know the happy ending!
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