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Post by parker002 on Nov 9, 2011 17:07:48 GMT -5
One of my glo-lite (red neon) tetras has a raised area on his tail, just in front of the fin. It's white and raised but not inflamed and doesn't appear to be a wound. It actually looks like it's underneath the skin. He's one of my largest glo-lites so he's an alpha and he continues to behave like it, herding the others and eating his share with energy. Any ideas?
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Post by Carl on Nov 9, 2011 17:23:43 GMT -5
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Post by parker002 on Nov 9, 2011 17:33:39 GMT -5
I don't have an potassium permanganate. I do have Jungle Fungus Clear, which contains nitrofurazone, furazolidone, and potassium dichromate.
I wish I could get better pics - it doesn't appear to be cottony or fibrous at all, and appears to be underneath the skin.
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Post by parker002 on Nov 9, 2011 18:36:17 GMT -5
I think I might follow my own advice (the advice I gave Renee recently) and opt for a combination of Melafix and Pimafix. Since none of my other fish are sick and this fish seems to be normal other than the lesion, I think that might be the best thing to do short term.
Plus, I think it will be easier on my plants, too.
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Post by Carl on Nov 10, 2011 16:28:10 GMT -5
Yes this is definitely easier on the plants.
However a swab with Potassium Permanganate can penetrate slightly under the epidermis and for minor issues such as this or even major problems that do not respond, it can be very effective.
Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 10, 2011 20:30:49 GMT -5
I'm gonna do the swab of potassium permanganate this weekend and also start the Mela/Pima combo. I don't have any of them on-hand so I'll have to go buy them.
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 11, 2011 22:38:22 GMT -5
I am a bit late to this thread, but I definitely would say it is Columnaris or Saprolegnia (more likely Saprolegnia as Carl said though since he has more experience with this.)
Pimafix and Melafix should work for this as you noted. The swabbing with Potassium Permanganate is a good idea IMO. I'm not sure how deeply/if Methyline Blue would penetrate since it is underneath the skin, but a bath in MB "may" help as well.
I hope that helped.
Renee
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Post by parker002 on Nov 14, 2011 11:47:24 GMT -5
I got some Maroxy over the weekend and attempted to do a swab application this morning. I can't tell if I got anything on him or not. Any tips on how to do it?
I diluted it 3 parts distilled water to 1 part Maroxy, laid him on a paper plate, and dabbed it on the area with a cotton swab. Since he was wet, I think the medication just tended to flow into the drops of water around him. And because the medication is colorless, I really have no way to know.
He does have some patchy whiteness on the upper tail fin now, so it indeed looks like Saprolegnia. I treated the whole tank with Melafix and Pimafix.
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Post by parker002 on Nov 15, 2011 9:19:06 GMT -5
I went ahead and used Methylene Blue this morning instead of the Maroxy. This time I put a paper towel down on the plate so that I wouldn't have to deal with the diffusion into surrounding water droplets. It worked pretty well. He already looks better so I may not do another swab until Thursday and I may use the Maroxy again at that point.
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Post by Carl on Nov 15, 2011 11:16:08 GMT -5
Sorry I missed this thread yesterday (it was an insane day) Anyway, I think the Methylene Blue or a Potassium Permanganate swab is better. MB will often stain areas of Saprolegnia or other infections, so you know that it is where it belongs. PP does not stain as readily the infected tissues, but it is often effective when MB fails. Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 15, 2011 11:46:19 GMT -5
Since I'm using the Mela/Pima combo in the tank, I went with MB for now. That way I can see the affected tissue and hopefully increase the effectiveness of the other medications.
If it gets worse, I'll order some PP from you (nobody here locally has it or they carry stuff containing PP that doesn't list it on the label).
I have no idea what to do with Maroxy other than throw it away. I'm sure it would be useful if it wasn't colorless...
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Post by parker002 on Nov 18, 2011 10:08:50 GMT -5
I think the Sapro (or it could be Columnaris) is actually a secondary infection. I'm seeing what looks like Ich spots on some of the fish.
I don't have any fish acting lethargic or otherwise deathly ill (although I did see a Cory that appeared to be scraping one of his sides on plant leaves and the driftwood).
I'm just added my Day 5 dose of Mela/Pima and I started Kordon Ich Attack yesterday. I don't have enough CopperSafe to do a full treatment, plus I'm not sure what it would do to my plants.
I need to get some meds ordered I think. Carl, can you suggest what all I should use? I need to treat Ich with a secondary of Sapro and/or Columnaris I think. And I think I should get a new UV bulb too.
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Post by Carl on Nov 18, 2011 11:15:37 GMT -5
Quick Cure is probably the strongest Ich Medication, but ParaGuard is still quite effective and I have found it to be much less harsh, so generally this is my first choice of late (I used to use either Quick Cure or Super Ich Plus, which is no longer available). Herbal Ich attack is a moderately effective Ich treatment as per my more limited use of this product (& conversations with others that have used it) Medicated Wonder shells are also a moderately effective treatment, but an excellent follow up treatment that also is quite effective for Saprolegnia/Fungus. These would be my suggestion as an after Ich Treatment (although I often used them as a primary treatment with clients that I only visited once per week or two and that did not want to mess with drops or liquids). As for the UV Bulb, once every 6 months is best. Also keep in mind that some medications are affected by UVC light, although I have seen no evidence that the medications you are using would be affected (UVC mostly affects antibiotics, especially Quinine Sulfate, Metronidazole). See: Effect of UV Sterilization on minerals, chemicals, etc.Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 18, 2011 11:38:01 GMT -5
Would you use Furan 2 and/or Kanaplex given that I appear to have another infection going on? Or should the medicated Wonder Shells be enough if I go with Paraguard first?
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Post by parker002 on Nov 18, 2011 11:41:13 GMT -5
Also, I have oto, cory, and syno catfish - should I be using malachite green? I would guess the copper and malachite green in the medicated Wonder Shells is safer than adding the liquids directly to the tank?
I don't want to hurt my sensitive fish or my plants...
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Post by Carl on Nov 18, 2011 16:43:18 GMT -5
I would suggest ParaGuard at 1/2 dose along with Triple sulfa (Triple Sulfa is an excellent buffer for Malachite Green) See Aquarium Medications #; Malachite GreenThe Medicated Wonder shell would be best as a follow up after a 3 treatments of ParaGuard & Triple Sulfa; however if the infestation is mild, the Medicated Wonder Shell may be the primary treatment
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Post by parker002 on Nov 18, 2011 16:54:23 GMT -5
I see 3 or 4 fish with 1 or 2 spots. I have 3 fish (including the original glo-lite with the tail lesion) that appear to have what might be either Sapro or Columnaris. I have only observed the one cory cat scraping.
Would you say that's "mild" and therefore go straight to the medicated Wonder Shells? Or should I just continue with my existing regimen for a few more days and see what happens?
I haven't had any disease issues in so long I'm just not sure what to do.
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 19, 2011 1:11:46 GMT -5
This seems to me like a spreading ich infestation. If it had been a few spots on *one* fish and it was the first day there were any traces of ich, I would probably go with just the medicated wondershell. However, in this case, I would recommend something stronger. I have had ich nightmares (literally) from my early days of keeping fish where they would get ich and die 4-7 days later on average where I only noticed the 2nd or 3rd day and the ich had infected all the other fish by then. I haven't personally used Paraguard for ich. (I have tried it for non-ich related discolorations on fish with no ich symptoms out of caution though. :/ ) Therefore, it is hard for me to say as far as its effectiveness personally. The same goes for Quick Cure as per experience although I have heard good things about it. I had some success many years ago with something called Ich Clear. But with the plants and sensitive fish, I would recommend Paraguard (as this is gentle). Or if you use another medication that contains Malachite Green as one of the main ingredients, use it at half dose and with caution. Also, what are your water parameters? You take very good care of your fish so it seems like it is more than a coincidence that disease struck like this. Did you recently add new fish? Also, if the PH, GH, and KH are higher, Malachite Green will be less harmful to the sensitive fish. As well, is this the same tank as the one with the algae problem that you mentioned? I think you have a pretty bad situation here with the Saprolegnia and Ich since both are spreading. I think that tackling both of these diseases at once is best (if possible) since both are very contagious. I looked through several of Carl's articles and found that Paraguard can be used with Furan 2 and Kanaplex. This IS a potent medication combination to my knowledge (although Kanaplex and Paraguard are not harsh on fish by themselves). I think that Paraguard in combination with Furan 2 OR even maybe a Paraguard, Furan 2, and Kanaplex is best. However, since you have some sensitive fish and plants, you should use caution if you use all three. I have also discovered some "tricks" for dealing with sick fish that help them with stress and recovering from disease. 1) Cover the tank with a blanket or other material to make the tank VERY dark. I do not know *how* this helps, but I know it does significantly reduce stress in fish that are sick/stressed. Since you have plants, you will want to uncover the tank for 4-5 hours a day (gradually so this daily so the fish aren't shocked by the light) to keep them going. Do this for a week and keep an eye on plant health too while doing this. 2) Increase salt gradually to 1.5 - 2 tablespoons per 5 gallons or within the high range of what your fish can tolerate if they are sensitive for salt and cannot have salt at these levels. Lastly, an vital step of disease prevention and also treatment is identifying the cause of the disease outbreak and correcting it. (Ex. If ammonia of .75ppm in the tank for 2 weeks, identify what caused the ammonia spike and get it under control. If fish were fighting, identify that as the cause and look for any other stressers and separate the fish.) I hope this helps! Renee
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Post by Carl on Nov 19, 2011 13:06:40 GMT -5
Yes, assuming that the disease is NOT spreading while under treatment with Herbal Ich attack which is also for mild to moderate infections. I have NOT performed any head to head treatment comparisons with Herbal Ich Attack and Medicated Wonder Shells, so any reply would be based on individual usage (of which it is very limited with Herbal Ich Attack) I HAVE however used Medicated Wonder Shells extensively for mild to severe Ich infections and found ti to work well in mild infections such as your description (again assuming the Herbal Ich Attack is keeping it in check or killing it) and many moderate infections as well. I have NOT had good results in severe infections, but then nothing is 100% in severe infections in my experience. I should also add that both Herbal Ich Attack and Medicated Wonder Shells are effective in mild to moderate Saprolegnia Infections but only marginally effective with Columnaris (in fact not at all for HIA) Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 19, 2011 18:56:12 GMT -5
If it is Columnaris, it's not severe and I'm already using Melafix/Pimafix. If it's Sapro, I'm using those 2 PLUS the HIA. None of the fish have any growths anymore and the one fish that started it all just has a white streak on his tail that looks like a scar, it's no longer puffy.
And as of today, I don't see any fish with Ich-like spots, so I may have just gotten ahead of it all.
I think I'll go with the Wonder Shells by themselves for now.
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