|
Post by Carl on Jun 1, 2011 19:19:24 GMT -5
Yes, most definitely since it will aid inn essential positive mineral ions
Yes, but how much I am not sure, maybe only so much as aiding in internal fluid movement.
The may not be any obvious benefit, especially if this is genetic or early developmental deformity which is still my suspicion
Carl
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jun 1, 2011 20:57:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the response Carl and your input. I'll add the non-medicated wondershell then. I asked because I wanted to be sure it was ok to add because I know "medicated" wondershells should not be mixed with medications.
I'll try the epsom salt works out if the API General Cure treatment doesn't work. But I am waiting on it for now.. I don't want to do too much to the fish at once.
I tried epsom salt with Puon to treat the fish's bloatation problem a year or so ago. I gave the fish only a few baths before deciding it was not working. I'm not sure if the results (aka deficating or less fluid retention) should have shown after only a few times or not. (I believe I did these 3-4 treatments in a week's length of time.) Then again, I think I may have underdosed so it is probably worth giving a shot and discontinuing if I see no results.
That is a good point about the salt levels in the tank and Puon being possibly deformed. I am also curious about Oranda, the fish has sacs on its eyes (I'm unsure if they are fluid-filled or not). But if they ARE fluid-filled, should the amount of salt I had in the tank reduced the fluid retention in the sacs on Oranda's eyes?
On the topic of Oranda, this fish has quite an interesting eye problem. Around 2 1/2 years ago or more ago, it started getting cloudy eyes and at first I thought it was cataracts and later fluid-filled sacs. (I am not sure what the sacs actually are, or contain at the moment.)
The fish's actual eyes never have bugged out of its head. If the actual fish's eyes are intact (after all this time), they are still in the fish's head. How this works is it looks like the lens of the eye is expanding/growing. This happened with both eyes and they grew at a pace that was about even for a while. Only now one of the sac on one of Oranda's eyes has stopped growing and the other eye has a second sac growing on top of first one. The fish looks quite weird and a little creepy due to the double sac on one eye.
Oranda's eye issue is getting worse like with Puon but am not as concerned about this fish. The only danger at present for Oranda is if one of the sacs got hurt and became infected after the injury.
That said, just thought I would mention Oranda. I am not seeking help with this fish at the moment but thought it would be interesting/good to know since this is Puon's tank mate.
(Note: The reason why these two odd/deformed fish are together is because when I started up the 40 gallon a few years ago, I picked the fish I felt would have the most problem competing with the other goldfish for food to keep in the 10 gallon. That was so they could get enough food and I could keep an eye on them)
Renee (Caretaker of two very strange looking goldfish)
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Jun 2, 2011 9:42:07 GMT -5
Not necessarily. Salt is far from a cure all (often salt, aka sodium chloride is "sold" as a cure all or the opposite; totally useless. However both extremes are incorrect. I address this in my Aquarium Answers Salt in Freshwater Article) Also there can be many causes, to which salt at most can address some symptoms (think about treating a head ache with aspirin). This is not to say the use of salt is a waste as it can improve osmoregulation as can the use of Wonder Shells (as well as improve Redox Balance), but neither are cure alls. This in turn aids in the fish in his own natural defences As for Oranda, can you post a picture? I think you figured these goldfish out in the very beginning, both being weaker individuals with either hereditary or developmental issues. In the end, the way you need to look at this IMO, is think of these fish in hospice care and your good treatment/care is extending their lives far beyond where they would have passed on with lessor care. Carl
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jun 3, 2011 13:43:56 GMT -5
That is very true. It seems to be the case with Oranda and Puon too. I just added the second and final treatment of API General Cure to the 10 gallon Puon is in. So far, no difference in the fish. (The directions say to add the first treatment, wait 48 hours, put in the next treatment, wait another 48 hours, do a water change and that is the end of the treatment.) I'll try to get a picture of Oranda. Hopefully I won't be chasing her around with the camera like with Puon. There are also plenty of pictures on Photobucket of Oranda. If I don't take a brand nw picture of Oranda, I'll see if I can dig up a recent one from Photobucket. This is very true. Still, other than Puon's head looking a little odd when I got it, it had no bloating at all. And Oranda was a beautiful, cute goldfish- totally sighted, no eyes problems, and a orange cap on its head which had now completely faded. I agree on this. They likely would have died long ago otherwise. Admittedly, I am rather stubborn and will probably keep trying things to see if they will help on occasion. And of course if the costs of some kind of possibl;e cure outweigh the benefits, I will do nothing. (Of course being careful not to try too many useless treatments or cause unneeded stress for the fish. I am very aware medicating and/or treating too many times with a bunch of medications can lead to problems with altered water conditions and cause harm to fish. I did this a lot when I first started keeping fish so I know firsthand how this works.) Thanks again for the help and input everyone. Renee
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jun 3, 2011 23:16:52 GMT -5
Tonight I noticed Puon looks the bump has lessened on one side near the rear of the fish (the pelvis area). Puon's chest looks the same and the other bump near the rear is still there but seems a tiny bit smaller. This gives me a little hope it is going away though the bloating with Puon DOES vary slightly at times. Still, this makes sense as the first place internal parasites would leave since this area is near the vent of the fish.
On the bright side, if this continues (which odds still are in favor of it being a deformity, not parasites), it will be confirmed that these are parasites of some sort and Puon will be treatable.
On the negative side, if it is, it means I do in fact have a very heavy infestation in that fish that will take a LONG time to cure.
It's too soon to tell now. I'm not getting my hopes up too far.
Renee
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jun 5, 2011 19:11:22 GMT -5
I finished the treatment with API General Cure for Puon. The fish doesn't look much different. I also fed it a pea yesterday without much/anything happening. Also, I finally got some good new pictures of Oranda. Here they are. Oranda is searching for food which is why it looks like its yawning. You should also be able to see the problem with its eyes well and the difference between them. And here are two more. I also got some pictures of Puon after the treatment. Not much difference overall from what I can see. However, the fish looks different on its right vs, left side. Here are some.Puon is yawning in this one. Apparently I was wrong about it lacking the skin on its mouth (aka a deformity). It just has an odd mouth shape and doesn't use the sucking ability that skin on its mouth provides when it eats. And here are more.And lastly, a video. Puon was running from the camera again. The fish is ok. It was so intent on getting away because I had just taken the other pictures of it using a flash. (It didn't like that). Puon is ok now and calmer. (Sorry for the poor quality.) s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq297/goldenpuon/?action=view¤t=100_4629-1.mp4Renee
|
|
|
Post by sammiesam on Jun 5, 2011 21:42:27 GMT -5
He doesn't seem to be getting any worse at this point so that's a good thing
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jun 5, 2011 22:00:50 GMT -5
It is very good. Puon has been doing roughly the same for about 2 years. When I first noticed this, I thought Puon would be dead within 4 months (only due to its previous long-lived track record at the time.) But it provided me wrong and think Puon will continue to do so just like Oranda.
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Jun 6, 2011 10:59:26 GMT -5
He doesn't seem to be getting any worse at this point so that's a good thing This is the way I too would look at this. As for Oranda, he appears to be blind (which I am sure is not news to you) and as long as no infection gets started in his eyes, I would be hesitant to do much other than medicated/salt baths and even then only occasionally. Carl
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jun 6, 2011 19:32:58 GMT -5
Yeah, for Oranda I am not doing anything for treatment. The only reason I really put up some pictures is because you had asked. I tried thing in the past for Oranda with no results at all. As well, the fish has had very minor tears in its eyes over the 2 years it has had it. The inside of the eye got red with blood but never infected. However, I kept a close eye on the fish during those times with no issues after.
As for Puon, I was VERY surprised this afternoon to see Puon much much less bloated. The fish didn't seem very happy and was on the bottom a bit today after yesterday's water change and the end of treatment. But the less-bloatedness is a very good sign.
Puon goes up and down with bloating (I know due to observation of the fish since it got this), but does not normally de-bloat so to speak so fast. That said, I am keeping an eye on Puon and see what happens. My only concern right now is the stress Puon seems to be experiencing. (From more water changes than usual and most of all me staring and the fish much more than usual and trying to get video and pictures of it). Puon should be fine though.
Renee
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jun 8, 2011 0:06:14 GMT -5
Puon seems even less bloated now! The fish is looking somewhat "normal" on one side now. I am very happy about this. As well, Puon seems smaller due to the sheer amount of mass/volume lost so far.
I have no idea what is going on but am happy non the less. The de-bloating started the day after I did a water change and discontinued treatment.
I'll try to get some more pictures of Puon relatively soon. However, I want to wait a bit longer. Puon is just getting over the fear of me going to the tank (expecting me to pull out a camera or stare at it). I don't want to scare it any more.
So hopefully Puon will continue de-bloating and stay that way long enough for me to get good pictures.
Renee
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Jun 8, 2011 9:09:52 GMT -5
That IS good news!
There is no exact explanation IMO, it could just be his natural hereditary/developmental bio processes of fluid retention and organ inflammation. It could also be this plus your treatment Or it could be parasites and the subsequent treatment, but as I noted before, both history, treatment, and symptoms do not indicate this IMO.
Carl
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jun 8, 2011 13:37:17 GMT -5
Very true. But whatever it is, I am VERY happy! Still seeming less bloated today!
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jun 11, 2011 13:07:40 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Puon is looking more bloated again but not as bad as before. I noticed the bloating starting a couple nigths ago and it was before I fed the fish for the nigth so overfeeding could not have been it.
It seems to slowly be getting worse again. I am going to keep a close eye on teh fish and let it be - as I have basically since it got this. Puon is a long-lived and hardy fish, whatever is wrong with it.
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jul 1, 2011 22:45:54 GMT -5
Puon is now getting bloated at a faster rate than before and is at the most bloated I have ever seen it at this point. I am contemplating treating the tank with General Cure again but am not sure. The fish didn't de-bloat until 4 days after treatment started when I was about to finish treatment as per the instructions. I have been feeding ONLy Spirulina 20 for a few days now and so far, no results. Puon is getting worse. I was doing a search on the internet and stumbled upon some instances where goldfish bloated up (MUCH worse than Puon at this point) and looked rounded. The site I saw pictures of them on dubbed them basketball goldfish. From what I read briefly from that one site, it was not dropsy (no protruding scales) but the fish likely had liver problems. the pictures of the fish were after they had died and were more-ball like than fish-like. I hope Puon does not end up like this in time. Puon is nowhere near as bad as these but its condition concerns me. Puon has not been begging for food as much which concerns me (partially due to the bloating which makes swimming to beg harder). Also, both fish (Puon and Oranda) seem unusually on-edge. Before I did a water change this week, I saw Oranda (the blind tankmate of Puon) dash into a side of the tank and try to jump out of the water loudly. I am unsure how many times it did this but saw it do it twice and no more after that. Oranda tore its tail fin after doing that once and lost a thin, long strip from the middle of its tail fin after the second time. This was the day the tank was due for cleaning and found quite a bit of uneaten food under a decoration. Normally goldfish would not have trouble reaching it but Oranda is blind and has trouble locating food and Puon's bloating makes it a bit harder for the fish to get around. I switched the tank decorations a bit so the fish can easily find/access all food. I saw nothing abnormal about Oranda (other than what is already wrong with this fish of course.) I am going to do more research for Puon and keep an eye on the tank. Out of curiousity, could they be acting like this due to lack of sleep? I full well know that I should have lights off after a certain time and not suddenly put them back on. This can stress fish and is very harc on their eys if it was dark prior I know since they cannot blink so i feel pretty bad about that. However, with my Java programming class, I have had to pull a few all-nighters this week sometimes back to back and have no other place to do it other than my room with a light. In the meantime, for doing homework late at night, I have found an alternative. The T-2 light I have from Carl works well for lighting up a small area and keeping the area around teh fish tanks dark if the light is aimed well. This should not be an issue in the future. Looks like T-2 lights have more than one function. Renee
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Jul 2, 2011 10:42:21 GMT -5
Renee, my opinion this condition is mostly due to age, early age poor conditions (that can cause permanate damage), & heredity. You MAY have seen results for the General Cure (this was not a controlled test) based on the Metronidazole contained there in. From the Aquarium Medications Page 2 Article: "USE: Metronidazoles primary use is for the treatment of anaerobic gram positive bacteria including those that produce beta-lactamase. However, it is not effective against aerobic bacterium. As well Metronidazole is effective for some protozoa (especially internal flagellates and external). Due to Metronidazole effectiveness against anaerobic bacteria (by selectively blocking some of the cell functions of anaerobic bacteria) this drug along with Neomycin is a good choice for bloating of the digestive tract (common in goldfish). Metronidazole selectively blocks some of the cell functions in anaerobic bacteria, resulting in their demise."Often these anaerobic pathogens live in the digestive tract and with age become more aggressive as the fish becomes less resistant (think pneumonia in older humans or humans with compromised immune systems) This can be administered with the General Cure again or better in both tank and bath and best just as Metronidazole. That said this is NOT going to be a magic bullet IMO, just another tool to hopefully help him pull through this bout. Sadly, as you likely realize, someday there will be such a bout that he will not pull through, no matter what you do for him, including the years of good care. Carl
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jul 2, 2011 14:03:44 GMT -5
Thanks Carl for the reply. I am aware that Puon may very well be on the beginning to being on its way out. It has far exceeded my expectations in lifespan and hardiness but I know that will eventually come to an end. The fish could last 6 months more at this rate or 2 years if it remains stable and doesn't suddenly take a turn for the worse.
The good news is Puon is much more active today and begging like its usual self. The bloating went down slightly overnight on its own which probably helped with that. I think it also may be more active because when I had the lights on all night, it likely didn't get enough sleep and slept during the day making it look more unhealthy/inactive. Now I am making sure the tanks stays dark when I do homework late.
I am well aware that General Cure may do nothing or only help mildly due to the fish's age, genetics, etc. Still, I am very stubborn about this and am determined to find something to get the bloating at least under control if possible.
Oranda may be in a similar position unless its eye problem is its only issue (which it may have more issues that have nopt shown up yet or I am not aware due to its age.)
As for the fish in the 40 gallon, all are doing very well. Foneme is looking a bit fatter and Aztec is looking like it has put on weight as well. Both Foneme and Aztec have both seemed more friendly and like they have increased appetites for unknown reasons lately. The rest are very active beggers with no issues that I could see ending their lives anytime soon. These goldfish include Saylme (this fish grows like a weed!), Wickren (hyper, well-fed looking and *very* friendly), Nemo (going through a growth splurt), Alden (growing like crazy, friendly with long term tail problem and that never gets worse and mild body structure deformity that does not affect fish), Kona, and Hansel (well-fed looking, friendly, and slow growing with minor deformity that does not affect fish).
Renee
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jul 22, 2011 21:03:57 GMT -5
As for an update on Puon and Oranda, Puon is not getting worse bloating wise which is great! However, yesterday I did notice a somewhat thin and long, tiny bump on Puon around Puon's pelvic fins. Actually, like right in between them almost. It is on an area of teh fish that is very hard to see so that could have been on there a long time. It almost resembled the shape of a human skin tag. Oranda's eye sacs/lens are growing bigger too. On the eye that has two lens (with a second grown over the first), the outer part of the inside lens has skin, tissue growth, something bacterial/pathogenic (I have no idea what) growing over it. Whatever it is, it looks kind of gross. I have no idea if the actual eye which I cannot see is intact, dissolving away, or missing by now. I have had Oranda 5 years, 10 months, and 20ish days and it has had this problem for about 2 or 2 1/2 years. I made these observations while doing a water change yesterday and had to start the siphon for it with my mouth a few times. Not surprisinly, I washed my mouth out with soap a couple times afterward. lol I am not asking for tips on how to treat these guys since they are pretty old and obviously their problems are genetic or other things that cannot really be fixed. Disregarding appearance, they are acting very well. When they die is anyone's guess. But in the mean time, that are *interesting* to look at and maybe to poke a little fun at since that is better than worrying about things about them I cannot change. On the topic of humor, I own two of the weirdest looking fish known to humans. Their tank is also right next to my bed. Having alien-looking, goldfish begging for food first thing in the morning is a great way to start the day. lol Renee
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Jul 24, 2011 10:33:28 GMT -5
Yes it is unless they really are aliens and abduct you to their "Mother Ship" while you are asleep! Carl
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Jul 24, 2011 14:13:17 GMT -5
Indeed. They started off as goldfish and are now turning into something else- their true alien form. LOL Would you ever allow aliens.... I mean... "fish" like this in any of your tanks?
|
|