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Post by goldenpuon on May 23, 2011 15:28:04 GMT -5
Hi everyone.
As some of you already know, my goldfish Puon suffers from bloation problems and has for a few years now. It has been very slowly getting worse and I have been told to let the fish be since it is obviously deformed/doing fairly well and since I keep it in optimal water conditions.
Recently, Puon has taken a turn for the worse bloatation-wise. The fish is not acting any different but more bloated than ever.
What is odd here is the manner in which it is bloated. Besides being bloated around the chest area like usual (only more so now), on one side it is more bloated than the other. This gives it a slight "bumpy" look on that side with the area that is sticking out more.
As well, there is a second area (I believe on the opposite side of the fish to that of the first bloated area), there is another bloated area near the back of the fish. If fish were to have pelvises (which I am unsure of), it would appear that the area around the fish's pelvis is lumpy with bloat. The opposite side in the 'pelvic' area on the fish is bloated but not as much.
Please note these areas have been somewhat bloated/lumpy in the past but not as much or as noticable as now. So yes, Puon has been a slightly "lumpy" in those areas for some time. Also, please know Puon is not dying. This has been going on a long time as I mentioned and when the fish will die from this is completely unknown.
For more details on the goldfish, Puon also seems to produce waste with no problem. (I sometimes see the fish pooping but I don't keep really serious tabs on it.)
Also, the increased and odd bloating increase has been going on for about a week. Puon goes through phases where it bloats and then it the amount of bloating decreases a bit usually so I waited a bit. When I saw lumpy bloatedness on Puon, I first wondered if it was dropsy but there are no scales sticking out and the fish is not acting sick and is every enthusiastically begging me for food.
Admittedly, I have been irresponsible in feeding Puon by not feeding it peas or soaking its pellets and other food. (Though I do always feed Puon otherwater so the food does get wet before the fish reaches it.
As well, I have a decoration in the tank that spirulina flakes the fish don't get to sometiems collect behind. Every time I siphon, I suck up the debris with the siphon there first. However, Puon sometimes beats me to it and manages to grab a bit of the Spirulina from behind there.
I also have a goldfish named Oranda in the same aquarium who suffers from no bloating problems at all (though it is blind) and has been in the same tank with Puon almost non-stop all the time I have had it.
Puon and Oranda are in a tank. It is a 10 gallon and each fish is roughly 3 inches including fins. I have had both of these goldfish almost 6 years.
The current tank conditions are:
Nitrate: 10 Nitrite: 0 KH: 180 PH: 7.8 GH: around 200
I should also note that Puon has a jaw and head deformity where it looks like the top of its head bulges up slightly kind of like a Lionhead goldfish (only it is MUCH less than a Lionhead). Also, Puon has problems eating larger pieces of food due to lacking the skin goldfish are supposed to have around their jaw that allows them to extend their mouthes to suck up food.
Besides being concerned about this, my question is what is going on here that is causing it tio be bloated in such a way? Has anyone encounter bloating like this before?
Note: I have decided to stop being negligant in feeding and strictly soak Puon's food for a few minutes and also feed it peas on a regular basis. As I write this, both Puon and Oranda are enthusiastically eating an unshelled pea that I have split into tiny pieces.
Thanks.
Renee
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Post by Carl on May 23, 2011 19:18:32 GMT -5
Can you provide a picture? I doubt there is too much you can do, as I believe that in part this is a genetic weakness and it is your excellent care that has kept this from being a worse problem than it is. The main object is to keep the flow of fluids through Puon's body. This MAY be helped by occasional baths with elevated salt levels (about 1-2 teaspoons per gallon). Otherwise keeping your chemistry as per other essential mineral cations that help with fluid transfer & muscle contraction (which is important for circulation and digestion. From Aquarium Answers; Osmoregulation: "Calcium helps to transport ions (electrically charged particles) across the membrane, is essential for muscle contraction, calcium assists in maintaining all cells and connective tissues in the body, and much more"Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on May 23, 2011 22:22:51 GMT -5
I will provide a picture tomorrow after my class. I would consider Puon's bloating pretty severe though the fish acts like nothing is wrong!
I will definitely use wondershells more often in that tank. I could do the baths with salt but as you said, occasionally. Probably no other than once per week. I have injured fish performing baths and I do not want the stress of getting caught to outweigh benefits of the salt.
Also, not as a substiute for baths, but how much salt can I safely add to the tank that the fish can easily withstand over time without stress? For this, I may slowly acclimate them to get them used to it if needed. (This includes Oranda who has no such problem with bloating excluding the sacs on its eyes which may be fluid filled)
I should also note, I do not believe Puon is suffering constantly. However, it often goes to the top for air to balance itself out since otherwise its gets stuck at the bottom and tries to get to the top but is unable due to being weighted down. (Possibly from fluids or other stuff in its body?) Since I am not a fish, I obviously can't tell if getting stuck at the bottom causes the fish much discomfort or pain from the bloating.
Thanks for the help Carl. I'll keep you posted.
Renee
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Post by Carl on May 24, 2011 9:29:32 GMT -5
You can probably slowly increase the in tank salt levels to 2.5 teaspoons per gallon for a short time (14 days) as per the Auburn University study I cite in the Columnaris articleCarl
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Post by goldenpuon on May 24, 2011 18:53:21 GMT -5
Thanks. I will try that Carl. I finally got the pictures and also a video of Puon. It looks a little less lumpy than yesterday in terms of its bloating. Video I hope it didnt't come out too dark. s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq297/goldenpuon/?action=view¤t=100_4582.mp4(Note: At one time Puon itches or does something similar in the video. I do not think this means anything. Perhaps the fish got scared and it looked like an itch. Also, Puon had its fins clamped at times during the video due to the stress of being chased around the tank with the camera.) Pictures:Renee
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Post by sammiesam on May 24, 2011 22:55:40 GMT -5
Oh dear, poor fishie. I'm glad he's acting normal though. When I read your explanation and saw the pics it made me think of bloat, for frogs and I am guessing by what carl said its the exact same idea? Could this be caused by a parasite blocking the lymph channels like in the human diseases? More or less just wondering. I've also read that in the frog version of bloat it can be caused bacterial infection, I was thinking maybe it could also apply for fish? I'm just giving some ideas I thought of, maybe Carl knows a bit more
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Post by goldenpuon on May 24, 2011 23:33:49 GMT -5
Thanks for your input Sammie. Puon is a tough fish. He/she has had this 2 years now. It showed up in Spring 2 years ago if memory serves. I wonder if it is that? Though fish aren't super closely related to frogs, I believe they were the direct ancestors of frogs. If it is a lymth node disease, I hope it is curable and not an auto-immune disease. That is incurable even in humans. Maybe it is a bacterial infection... though why it would act sio slowly (over 2 years) is puzzling. Still, I have had fish that have had something and yet it didn't progress or get worse due to the fish's immune system keeping it in check. A good example is Alden. It gets largish white spots on its tail when when it gets a fin tear or the tail becomes bloodshot (this happens with some of my goldfish and I am unsure why). But this fish has been on and off for 3 years now. Sometime spot free, somtimes not. The fish never acts sick but the other fish will get the spots when their fins tear on occasion. It goes away as teh fins heal though. That's an example of a disease I allow tio stay in my tank because getting rid of it is not worth it since the fish are fine. I remember trying to at first when the fish first got it and the treatment didn't work. I do hope to cure Puon though. What he/she has is much worse than the mild spots.
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Post by Carl on May 25, 2011 9:38:02 GMT -5
If fish could talk, I think he was saying "Get that camera out of my face!" ;D Anyway, joking aside; Sam makes good points, but the timeline does not explain these ongoing issues. Generally the lumps I observed in this video are caused by parasites, but I have serious doubts as you have not introduced any new fish or live foods that could have introduced any parasites (usually Nematodes). There is not an accurate way of finding out the exact cause without out serious injury or death to him. It is is still possible that there are latent nematodes that came in a long time ago and have never been fully destroyed/killed. What I would do, besides what has already been done/discussed is to add Metronidazole to his baths (at double recommended tank dosing). This can also help with internal bacterial infections. Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on May 25, 2011 16:03:07 GMT -5
Grr. I just accidently deleted my message just as I was about to send it. *Is typing it all over again* And you are right Carl. Puon didn't like that camera! lol Are you sure it is doubtful the fish has parasites? As I have mentioned with my other goldfish, I have had them get a disease or other issue as I noted prior with Alden and have it never become an issue in my tanks. Though I have not added new fish in years, it may be possible due to good water conditions and my fish being hardy (for reasons that puzzle me), it could possibly have some kind of internal parasite yet not be spreading it. Also, I read that the Nemotoads are spread easily. What I am about to say here is kind of contradictory to what I said above when I said Puon could still have parasites but this is also plausible si I will mention it. Puon's tankmate, Oranda, is not showing any signs of parasites like Puon has even though Nemotoads (if Puon has them) are supoposed to spread easily. Oranda has been in the same tank as Puon for almost all of the 5 1/2 years I have first got Oranda. Admittedly, Oranda is slightly thin but so are the two fish, Aztec and Foneme (however Foneme is much thinner). I got Foneme and Aztec with Oranda from the same tank at the petstore at the same time. Aztec and Foneme have not been in the same tank to my knowledge as Oranda since I took them out of quarantine about 5 1/2 years ago shortly after I got them. I have shared tank equipment between their tanks however. So though these 3 fish have been separated from so long, they all have some weight issues (Oranda having it the least though). As well, my goldfish Salyme, Hansel, and Nemo all spent years in the same tank as Puon 2 1/2 years ago before I switched them to the 40 gallon. These fish do not have any parasite issues and are quite well-fed (but not bloated) looking. My point here is whatever is wrong with Puon does not seem to be spreading to the other fish despite much time spend together. Also, are you sure Metronidizole is the best choice in this case? I read it is a fairly mind treatment but is still good for what Puon has according to the, Aquarium Medications article. I do not have any Metronidizole in the house but will try to see if I can ask my mom if I can order some from you. The main reason why I am a little unsure if Metronidizole is the best choice is I read that Jungle Internal Anti-Parasite Food contains Metronidizole. I have fed this to all my goldfish (to target Puon and Foneme specificially) many times in the time I have had them. I followed the directions on the box and the fish ate the medicated food with no problem, yet it had absolutely no effect on them each time I gave it to them. Though I believe the Jungle food may have been expired the last couple times I used it, because it contains Metronidizole and it has not worked in the past, I have my doubts using pure Metronidizole will work for Puon. Carl, please note I am not against using Metronidizole in general and your recommendations are on the spot for what this likely is. It is only my past experience with my fish that I described above that gives me doubts about the Metronidizole. That said, I hope I didn't come off as offensive. Has anyone had something similar ever happen with a fish they have had? Further input regarding if Metrodizole is still a good choice, about Nemotoads as well as other possible things this could be is appreciated. Thanks. Renee
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Post by Carl on May 25, 2011 17:37:50 GMT -5
My doubts are based on: A: Your previous treatment history B: Lack of transmission to other fish C: Fish surving so long with potential parasite issues
If I did not know you, your history other than these be rescue fish, I would be 90% sure that parasites were the problem, in particular nematodes.
As for Metronidazole, while it is not the strongest, you cannot compare a multi treatment with many medications at lower dose levels. As well medicated foods are only as good as how much the fish eats, and from my experience my results have been mixed at best for this reason (with severe cases "everything but the kitchen sink" treatments along with baths work best). Praziquantel is another effective treatment more parasite specific than Metronidazole with is more generic (ofte the two are combined)
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on May 25, 2011 21:02:57 GMT -5
*sighs* This is the second time I lost a message I wanted to write today (this time thanks to my internet freezing...) *types everything over* This is good to know. I remember when giving my goldfish Foneme the Jungle Anti-Parasite Food, some of the other fish I was not targeting with the medicated ate more than Foneme. Still, Foneme still ate enough for it to have worked properly. I searched my cabinet of fish meds tonight and have some good news. I found a bottle of Medronidazole. The bad news is there is only 1 tablet left.... Still, that is enough for baths since each tablet treats 5 gallons. As well, the bottle shows the Medronidazole expired in April of 2009. Will it still work even though it is expire by 2 years? The last time I remember treating fish wtih Metronidazole was with two guppies, Rena and Renee, for septicaemia/an unknown internal problem a couple years ago or more. (These guppies are long gone). From what I remember when I treated them, I was not worried about contaminating the bottle because I thought I was going to use of the medication up. As well, I recall dropping a tablet in and then taking it out before it dissolved and putting it back in the main bottle. I am pretty sure this happened though not 100% positive since my memory is a bit fuzzy since this was so long ago. Firstly, provided my memory is correct regarding dropping the tablet in and taking it out, would the Metronidazole still be effective in treating Puon if it was dropped in the tank and taken out? Secondly, (though I think this is highly unlikely), since these guppies were definitely sick with something, is there a possibility any disease could be transmitted from the tablet to Puon? I should note that the tablet does NOT have a gelatin casing like a medicine capsule. Unfortunately, I do not have any Praziquantel though I have many other medications in the house, some which might contain it as an ingredient. Also, do you think that this could possibly not be a parasite but something wrong with the fish's digestive system or an internal deformity? Puon has 2 other deformities I know of, one in which is Puon lacks the stretchable skin goldfish should have for sucking up food. For this reason, it has trouble eating food larger than the wide of its mouth which other goldfish have little to no issue with. Also, if you look at some of the pictures of Puon, you will notice the top of the fish's head looks a little funny. Though the top of the fish's head looks a little bloated out now (sort of like a Lionhead goldfish), the fish's top of the fish's head used to be less round and with a bit lower top than is normal for goldfish before the bloating started. I noticed the oddness about Puon's head when I first got the fish but thought nothing of it at first. I also know Puon has bloating around its head and area around the area a fish's pelvis would be (if fish have them) as well as its sides and chest. Is that normal for internal parasite infestations to target a fish's head and other places Puon has? This picture best knows what I mean. Lastly, provided this is parasites, are these transmitable to humans? I have used my mouth to start the siphon for Puon's tank for years and often accidently get water in my mouth. Thanks again for the help Carl. I really appreciate it. Sorry for all my questions. P.S. When Puon dies (which knowing this fish's survival record will not be soon), I will definitely disect the fish and let you guys know what I find. Renee
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Post by Carl on May 26, 2011 9:18:57 GMT -5
Two year old Metronidazole is going to be less effective (See Aquarium Medications Page One). However if I read correctly one of the tablets has been added to water and then removed; if so this moisture likely sped up disintegration of the tablet & it is likely useless.. Levamisol is another effective nematode treatment (see Aquarium Parasites) Yes, this is what I was originally going with in this thread based again on your history and care. As I noted earlier, he has many of the symptoms of a parasite, especially nematodes, but his history and care (including this head deformity) speak to a more likely genetic or early developmental deformity Carl
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Post by parker002 on May 26, 2011 10:30:02 GMT -5
I've found Prazi and Metro together to be fairly effective for internal nematodes (intestinal roundworms). Metro isn't nearly as effective as Carl mentioned, but it's an antibiotic and helps prevent secondary infections.
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Post by goldenpuon on May 26, 2011 13:22:21 GMT -5
You did read this correctly. And by the looks of it, I will be needing some new Metronidazole.
I'm also going to see if I can get some Levamisol (which I know is not being made anynmore for fish), Piperazine, and Praziquantel.
If they don't work, I'm going to have to continue to treat this like I have been- as a deformity.
I have a feeling I'm going to have to experiment with these a bit (with caution of course) in baths to see what works the best.
I admittedly, have had mixed results with Metronidazole in the past.
Until I can get a hold of my mom at a good time to go on her Paypal account, I'm going to have to wait to order anything.
Currently, I have increased the salt by 1 tablespoon in the 10 gallon. I will be adding a little more tdoay to slowly bring the salt level up.
Thanks again for the help you two. I hope I get can succesfully stop this with Puon!
Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on May 31, 2011 17:49:37 GMT -5
UpdateL Puon is looking twice as bad as last week from the top/side view from my message on May 25, 2011. I am going to Petsmart as soon as I can get a ride from my mom to pick up some medicine. Maybe Puon had bloatation issues and didn't have a parasite issues before and now it does? Maybe that is why it is worsening so fast. On the bright side, the fish is still acting normal and since I started soaking the pellets, has not been weighted down and resting on the bottom due to that near as much. Still, I am not happy with what is going on at all. Renee
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Post by Carl on May 31, 2011 17:59:23 GMT -5
Sorry to read this Renee I still question parasites based on the time line and other fish, as well how he is acting and defecating is not indicative of parasites. That said, treating for parasites is still a good idea, and even more so would be medicated/salt baths. Carl
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Post by sammiesam on May 31, 2011 22:46:01 GMT -5
Sorry to hear this Renee I really hope he starts looking better once you start medicating and like carl said, if it was me I'd be super keen on the salt baths to help reduce swelling - Carl would epsom salts be a good idea for something like this? I know its supposed to be to help as a laxative but it can also help with the swelling and flushing out anything that's in the system?
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Post by Carl on Jun 1, 2011 11:11:37 GMT -5
Sorry to hear this Renee I really hope he starts looking better once you start medicating and like carl said, if it was me I'd be super keen on the salt baths to help reduce swelling - Carl would epsom salts be a good idea for something like this? I know its supposed to be to help as a laxative but it can also help with the swelling and flushing out anything that's in the system? Yes, Epsom salts can help with fluid movement (generally at about 1/4 teaspoon per gallon) Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 1, 2011 11:31:40 GMT -5
Thanks guys.
I bought the API General Cure and am treating Puon today.
Would it be ok to drop a NON-medicated regular wondershell into the tank during treatment? I know you said it could help Puon.
Also, will the epsom salt baths help if the fish does in fact have internal parasites? I imagine combined with the internal parasite treatment that if the fish does have internal parasites and they are small, it could help flush them out as well as any fluid build-up.
Also the increased salt levels don't seem to be helping. I have slowly raised the salt level to what I estimate is 1 tablespoon per 2-3 gallons.
Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 1, 2011 17:01:26 GMT -5
I treated the tank with the API General Cure. Both fish seem ok with it so far.
However, it looked like Oranda was clamping very slightly *before* I addded the medications earlier today.
I think it might have been because I did a water change yesterday. Admittingly, I used a rag to wipe down the sides of the tank that had been through the wash but is only used for fish I should not have done and may have caused some stress if anything was on it. Also, I think the high salt levels may be bothering Oranda a bit.
Before I added the General Cure, I changed a 1/2 gallon of water to lower the salt level a little and because of what happened with the rag.
I have not added the wondershell yet. Even though I have updated, I still have the two questions from my previous post. No huge rush to answer them though, just letting everyone know.
Also, currently I have the tank 1/2 covered with a towel. I'm not sure if this will do much but I hope it will.
Renee
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