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Post by starspun on Apr 16, 2011 2:56:02 GMT -5
 Hi I'm Cat. I'd normally do the introduction thing, but I haven't slept for two days, and my eyes are crossing. And I have a bit of a problem....may or may not be time sensitive? Ok, a bit of background (This is gonna be long! But I have pictures at the end if you need to skip through it!). My hubby and I started fulltime RVing 5 years ago, but recently purchased a studio condo for my cosmetic business. I thought, oh yay, I can get a Betta, since I used to keep them when I was younger. Well, one thing lead to the next and I decided to breed them. I now have 13 Bettas imported from Thailand, coming back up to Canada with us. I originally made a little 'fishroom' for them in the bathroom here, but now that we are on the go constantly until our arrival in Canada next month, they are all in little 1/2 gallon bins within a large heated bin with water half way up. I give them spring water, that or reverse osmosis water. Still treat it with Prime though;-) Now, onto my problem....my prized Metallic Platinum Butterfly, 'Plato'. It started off with a red dot on his tail....right at the end. I thought, oh no, he can't be tail biting. He is the only one of my males who has not taken to this (and he's a rosetail to boot!). It didn't seem right so I moved him to a separate tank to watch him. That's when I noticed, white fuzz on the end of the red sore. Over the course of two days, the red popped up all over the ends of his dorsal, tail and anal fin. And more fungus! First I tried Maroxy. Some fungus fell off. Then grew back. Then I mixed in Maracyn and Maracyn II with it....as well as salt. Nothing happened. I took the advice from someone on the IBC forum and called a hotline....they told me they thought it was parasites and to get some Prazipro. I go to a fish specialty place only to find out it was out of stock (when I had called to make sure it was there, ugh). However, the stores 'expert' was there so we talked a bit. After a description and pictures he doubts parasites and gives me Malachite Green and something that starts with a K, ends with a cin. I can't read the writing on the bag. Apparently this combination will help with any of the types of things Plato may have. He seems to think it's bacterial with fungus as a secondary thing. I come home, thinking the entire time about three separate peoples advice saying to trim the stuff off the edges and then treat. I am too paranoid to take him out of the water to do this, I didn't want to stress. I cut off as much as I could while in a cup and then gave him a salt bath. Then I transfered him into his new med cocktail in clean water (I change his tank 100% everyday). Within an hour or two, the fungus is back. Advice on another forum leads me to water mold. I check out the other fishes containers and notice the 'fungus' surrounding particles whether it be poop or cat fur. (Long hair cat here!). Hmmmm I wonder! I have been using the reverse osmosis instead of spring for the week, and it is slightly harder in PH. Maybe contaminated?! Ugh! So tonight the red has gone down I think, slightly. The fungus is back....white, and now even bluish parts. When I look with my loop, it's a blue base with a few white strings coming from it. I swear I even saw a 'powder' coming out from the area but maybe I was seeing things. I haven't slept for two days now! Plato is clamped. It's like his fins are all glued and paralized. He goes up to breathe, the plunks back down on the bottom. His little side fins are always going though, which gives me hope. His dark eyes have turned a silver blue....he only has this when he sleeps but now it is constant. I feel so sick and sad watching him.... And now, for the pictures. The three at the end were taken tonight, you can see the red has calmed a bit. In one of the three at the end you can also see the blue part with the jagged black outline. IT doesn't look like it, but it's fungus. Not showing up in the picture as such. Very strange. You can see the white cloudy fuzz in the other shots. If anyone has any ideas, input, insight....all that good stuff, PLEASE let me know. This guy is close to our hearts....even my HUBBY is attached to him. Thanks so much in advance. Pics can be seen here: www.facebook.com/album.php?fbid=10150544479610291&id=822675290&aid=642211&l=4e466102efP.S. The pics in the middle are of a particle I took out with a turkey baster. Tail covered in the stuff. I will stress that this fuzz is only on the edge of the fins (now a small piece has developed where the dorsal touches the end of the tail, ugh!)
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Post by starspun on Apr 16, 2011 3:00:39 GMT -5
BTW, a picture of him originally. So pretty....  |
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Post by Carl on Apr 16, 2011 12:01:30 GMT -5
First, welcome to EA and I am sorry for the problems with your Pet  Also I am fellow RVer (although not full time and we are thinking of giving it up do to costs and so many problems that takes away the enjoyment, but we are giving it one last try with a relatively new TT) Anyway, on to your problem. I will start with the first problem that "popped up" in reading your post. That is the use of RO or Spring Water with only Prime. While the Prime is fine, it does not address the definite lack of essential Mineral ions with RO (& possible with Spring Water, but this can vary with source and definition of Spring Water). I strongly recommend Reading these two articles( in particular the Amazon River/SE Asia Section in the first) *Aquarium Chemistry; Including Amazon River/SE Asia Water
*Proper Osmotic Function & RO Water UseThe possible lack of these very essential mineral ions, including in an ongoing basis can not only effect treatment, but can actually be the cause. This is not to say using RO water is bad, quite the contrary, it just needs to be properly utilized As to your treatments, Maracyn and Maracyn 2 are both poor choices for your fish' symptoms both being primarily gram positive and although Iam not positive (based on these pictures) that you have Saprolegnia (Fungus), I am 95% sure (if only based on statistics) that your infection is gram negative (Maracyn 2 has some gram negative abilities, but not much). See this article: Aquarium Medications Two; AntibioticsI would recommend a medicated bath for 30 minutes that includes salt, Methylene Blue, and Nitrofurazone and KanamycinColumnaris is another possibility based on both pictures and your description and water use. This article deals with both: Columnaris/Saprolegina (Fungus)I left clickable links within my answer for further information too. I would strongly suggest following the chemistry steps in the first two articles I noted. Good Luck and please provide any more relevant information. Carl |
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Post by goldenpuon on Apr 16, 2011 15:49:56 GMT -5
First, welcome to Everything Aquatic. I am very sorry to hear about what is going on with your fish. I have kept and bred bettas too (in the past). I agree with Carl that RO water is ok to use alone, but minerals should be added (due to the lack of minerals RO water possesses). From what I can see, it looks like he has saprolegnia or columnaris. While keeping my own bettas, I found them very prone to bacterial infections like these. I suspect that treating him with a few different medications (of which some were barely or not effective) also could have weakened him a bit further. Also, please note that when you do baths, DO NOT put the water used for the fish's bath back into the main container your fish is kept in. Methyline blue is very helpful to fish but kills beneficial (aka nitrifying) bacteria. i doubt you have heard of this before, but putting a dark towel over most of Plato's container may help. I found out (in an accident during a power outage when I tried to keep my fish warm) that darkening a tank seems to help with stress of a fish. To be honest, I do not understand how or why, but it helps quite a bit. Just a week or so ago, I had a goldfish come down with a very mild parasite infestation. It appeared a bit itchy and slightly weak. I put a few dark blankets over its 40 gallon and it immediately seemed better (though I do not know how or why this works.) I have also observed better coloration in stressed or sick tetras with this. To the point, darkening the area with a dark towel or blanket may help. Of course, if teh fish is very far gone, it will not help as much. Even with a darkening of the container Plato is in, treatement such as Carl recommended is still a must IMO. Best of luck with your fish. I have 15 fish that are also like family to me and I know how hard it is when one falls ill or dies. My thoughts are with with and your fish. Renee |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Apr 18, 2011 11:02:44 GMT -5
CAT!!! Glad you joined!!! I told you this forum is awesome!!! (Lori from BB)...
Read the articles that Carl left (he is the one I was referring to) they have a lot of good info...he also sells all the meds that he mentioned...
On BB you mentioned K...cin... I was pretty sure that it was Kanamycin...I keep all the above mentioned meds on hand.
This forum has saved several fish of mine!!!
Welcome and hope Plato gets better fast....I have to 3rd Carl that saprolegnia or columnaris is the probable cause.
I almost forgot also....be sure and bleach his container!!! You don't want to go re-infecting him...I have dealt with both of these diseases and didn't bleach the containers (washed them out but didn't bleach)...just make sure to rinse them very well.
Lori
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Post by starspun on Apr 18, 2011 13:43:54 GMT -5
Hello everyone! Thank you SO SO much for all the help. I have not been online much due to the fact that I've been big time depressed....yes....Plato passed.... I cannot believe that a fish caused so much sadness on this end. My husband, who I never see cry (only once when his childhood dog had to be put down) was in tears. I was shocked. We've actually been quite down for days, it just wasn't Platos time....I just have a bad feeling about that. We tried everything....and now I just tell myself that I did everything wrong, and that is why he died.... First off, Carl, thank you so much for this great advice. I had heard something about the R/O lacking minerals....on the machine is says it retained most of them but yeah....doubtful. I have switched them back to their normal water. They had only been in this R/O stuff for about 7 days now....I'm not sure how much damage could be done in that time? I hope it's not because I switched the water. I will look into this with the spring water now as well! Now, I am kinda glad you said the Maracyn may not have been right, because I felt such guilt when he died....I thought, oh maybe I should have just kept on with the Maracyn. I just feel like the Malachite Green and Karamycin treatment killed him or something. I guess I did half of something right, at least I got the Karamycin right! But I was using the Green, was that wrong? Also, I didn't do the bath thing. Ohhhh now I wish I did, maybe the meds were too much for him and killed him! I did the salt bath first and then kept him with the Green and Karamycin overnight. Ugh! See, I'm just going to feel guilt for whatever I did....this is a curse.... Basically, he looked a bit better. The redness was going away, but the fungus was still there. We woke up in the morning to find him on his side, still breathing. We knew it was time for him to go. I felt like I killed him with too many drugs....I SLOWLY transfered him over to mostly the spring water, and added a bit of aquarium salt and then put some Betta Spa in. Layed him on his favorite leaf and watched him go. It was pretty peaceful. He fluttered his little side fins until the very last breath. I am actually crying writing this....damn fish broke my heart.... Thank you also Renee and Lori....I appreciate the advice and kind words. If only I had known about the bath option. I thought I had to keep the meds in at all times to work. What have I done?! At least I now for next time, I guess. Even though it's too late for Plato. I just cannot believe I'll never see him again.... As for disinfecting the containers, I am out of bleach, and have been using rubbing alcohol, and throughly washing it in hot water. Do you think this is sufficient or should I stick to bleach? Thank you all once again. Great forum here! I'll post an introduction when I get over this, if I ever do. I can't even look at my other fish without feeling like hell....because Plato should be with them! And now one of them has started to clamp for no apparent reason. Acting normal but clamping. If I lose another fish, I am throwing in the towel. Maybe I am too sensitive for this.... |
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Post by starspun on Apr 18, 2011 13:59:26 GMT -5
Carl, sorry, I forgot to address your RVing! Fulltiming has been a blast, for real. There are a lot of hiccups along the way, which can be annoying, especially if you have an older unit.
We started off in a brand spanking new KZ Escalade 5th wheel (KZ are AWESOME, and make a great unit. I have nothing but great things to say about them!). Even newer units have the issues and the maintainance requirements, as we learned well;-) Ha ha!
After our truck lease was up, we were kinda looking at motorhomes. Kinda nice to be able to go to the washroom, get something to eat, lay down, etc, while going down the road. Plus we have a zoo on this thing! It would be kinda annoying to have to bring all the animals back and forth from the truck to the RV when we stopped over in the cold on our way somewhere warm.
After the MOHO, we never looked back....we loved it. Thing is, we bought a 1997 Damon Intruder (the rare floorplan with the windows all around it, wish they made newer ones like this!) and we basically gutted it even thought it was in pretty darn good condition. I have this NEED to design stuff, so that's what we did....everything is now black and gold with a touch of red and it looks pretty bada$$ ;-) However, being an old unit, we've had our share of problems, and continue to have them. We are debating what to do....fix them and throw more money into the money boat, OR try to trade both this and the Escalade in for a newer MOHO. Thing about that is, I don't want to have to trade either....I love the Escalade (it's parked permanently in Toronto) and the Intruder, well, we kinda made our own. But now with a new studio condo for the biz we at least have to sell the Escalade *cries*. It seems every three years we have to move onto the next thing ;D And the $$ flies out the door....heh!
What kind of TT did you get? How big? I say stick with it if it's do-able, RVing is....refreshing and liberating! And super fun! Worth the money, unless the thing is a lemon. Ahhhhh, money pits....
:-)
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Post by Carl on Apr 18, 2011 20:04:50 GMT -5
Sorry to read that Plato passed. Believe me, after being in this hobby and business for over 3 decades I know how much a fish that has a lot of personality means and how she or he becomes a part of the family Although not all Malachite Green remedies are created equal, usually Bettas tolerate it well. The biggest danger with MG is the use in low pH, low mineral (especially calcium) water as it is much more toxic in these waters. Adding minerals and a pH over 7.2 lowers the toxic side effects. See: Aquarium Medications #3; Malachite GreenThere is not much you can do at this point and many times even with the best treatment plan, water conditions, etc it is just not meant to be. Again, sorry for your loss here. I certainly do not want to add to your pain. When you are up to it, please read over the first two article reading suggestions I provided (Water Chemistry *& Osmoregulation), hopefully these can help for the future. The use of Spring water may be OK (as well as RO) in the future, just make sure to add minerals and buffers back in. Betta Spa does add some minerals and also adds helpful tannins, although it does not supply some buffers and constant positive mineral ions. BTW, thanks for sharing your RV experience too. We have a Forest River 29 foot TT pulled by a 2010 Tundra. This trailer is quite heavy for its size having a small basement and attic for ducting and a full heavy steel frame. We are hoping this does not have the issues our MH had (which were primarily Chassis and generator as the parts that failed in the coach were mostly over time and could be considered normal wear and tears (so no complaints here, the complaints we have have been with the RV industry shops and dealers that have been very rude and dishonest) Anyway, this is off subject, so I can share more later and maybe you can as well in our Lounge forum board. Carl |
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Post by starspun on Apr 19, 2011 10:49:05 GMT -5
Hi Carl. Thanks so much for the follow up and kind words.
I got the 'Kordon' Malachite Green so I think this one is probably a better one if I am not mistaken? I guess with the water hardness, that took the risk down however the mineral situation was the only problem....we put a little less dose than recommended, trying to be so careful. I would hate the thought of him dying because of the meds....
Will be reading those articles throughly today during our drive. Today we are on the road so I like to catch up on my reading/emails then:-)
I was thinking of getting one of those R/O things for the water at our studio so this will be really important should we do that!
A Forest River....cool! Our next unit might be a 'Georgetown' by them!
Thank you so much once again. Still a lot of sadness around here. I was counting out food for feeding time yesterday and couldn't figure out why I was left with extra. Then I realized, I was still counting Plates in. :-(
I've also contacted the breeder for this guy (Interbettas) asking if he still had this line going. I can at least breed Platos sister, but would prefer another male. He's sending pictures and it's hard not to take them all, but I am holding out for the right one, as close in looks to Plato as possible.....
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Post by goldenpuon on Apr 19, 2011 21:46:10 GMT -5
I am so sorry to hear you lost him. My first several fish deaths were very hard (not to mention, I was only 12). It is always hard to lose a pet that is part of the family. I know you did the best you could for him and please don't be mad at yourself. You are a caring and responsible pet owner. Plato had a great life while you had him. I do not want to switch topic so suddenly, but I feel it is very important I mention this: Methyline Green (unlike Methyline Blue) can be toxic to fish as I pointed out. (I did not know the PH and lowe mineraliztion affected the toxicity, thanks for informing us Carl!) I bought something called Nox Ich which had a primary ingredient of Methyline Green. I did not know about the toxicity with it and used it to treat ich a number of years ago. Even at 2/5 dose, it killed the goldfish as well as the ich (though at lower doses, the fish didn't start to die until the time I added it to the water.) It can well be assumed the water's mineral content and PH were low. That said, Methyline Green is good to use and effective, just with caution. And starspun, please don't forget that you did a lot for this fish in trying to make him better. You are a great fishkeeper! From the heart, Renee |
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Post by starspun on Apr 20, 2011 9:43:22 GMT -5
Hi everyone! Well more problems! Two of my other fish are clamped. Both are bad tail biters. I have changed their water back to spring, all the other fish are fine. I would have to look more into the addition of minerals, but telling by this spring water it SHOULD be ok. I am about to look up ARROWHEAD spring water and see what's in it. Both of the fish were perfectly active until today. One still is, and looks like he may be getting better. The other one, who has always been on the smaller side, is starting to act like Plato, minus the red sores and fungus. Other than the tail biting and clamped fins, he looks fine! Now his dorsal is sticking JUST like Platos was....and he is having a touch time getting to the top just like Plato was. It's not swim bladder, but it seriously looks like his stiff fins are weighing him down. Any ideas?! I just cannot lose fish after fish without a clue on how to fight it. I wonder if this is related?! I have since bought all the fish their OWN turkey basters for cleaning so there is no more cross contamination. All the other fish are great (so far) and two of the other tail biters are even growing back their lovely tails! Any idea what this sticky fin situation is? He looks AWFUL.... |
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Post by goldenpuon on Apr 20, 2011 21:34:42 GMT -5
First, I am sorry to hear about the continued troubles with your bettas. By any chance, you have tried using tap water? I don't know much about using spring water but I have always used tapwater for my fish. I do think SOME brands of spring water may be low in mineral content (or at least the kinds fish need but I am not 100% sure on this). For them, it has been fine. What are the water parameters in the containers with the sick fish? Since they are only in 1/2 gallon containers, ammonia and nitrites can rise to dangerous levels quickly. Could you provide a picture of the 2 bettas thare are having trouble? The one that is trying and having trouble going to the top especially sounds like he is not doing well. As for fin clamping, this is a general sign that the fish is stressed and/or sick. I would recommend darkening his container (as I mentioned earlier this seems to help). For curing his whatever is causing these fish trouble, I cannot say what to give because I am unsure of what is wrong. Best of luck! |
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Post by starspun on Apr 20, 2011 23:17:57 GMT -5
Hey there! Thanks for writing back! Ok as for the tap water issue, because we travel I decided to go Spring because of all the different water everywhere. At a couple of places, the ammonia was insane high, and I didn't want to stress them by changing them all the time, and exposing them to new stuff, plus the gross stuff like the high ammonia. At all Targets, it seemed they carried the same spring water so at the time it seemed like the best idea.... As for the water perameters, lets say, I am crazy cleaning lady. HAHA! I change their water ALL the time. Every other day usually 100% and 50% in between....sometimes that wavers a bit when we are on the road for a bit, but I keep it pretty darned clean because the small container issue scares me.... I have uploaded some pics. Kyandii is the pink and white one, Colonial Mustard is the MG one. They are both the worst tail biters of course. They started right when I took possession of them, even before we started moving around. I don't think they mind the moving too much actually (and surprisingly). I have their heaters on, everything is kept pretty stable no matter where we are.... I will put the two in a darker tank tomorrow, see what happens.... It's just crazy because my other tailbiters are doing great, growing all their tails back, healthy as heck. I had Martinismommy (Karen, breeder if you know who that is;-) look at them today. She said my females were quite healthy, but when she saw Kyandii, she was shocked! He is tiny for the age, and rail thin. That's kinda how he came to us....we nicknamed him 'Small Fry' thinking he was quite young. Maybe he was the 'runt'! But he is even thinnner now. I am going to feed a bit more, try to beef him up. Both have their appetite and even near jump out of the tank when I put my hand above it. Kyandii seems a bit tired but today a bit more active than before. It's just so strange. Everyone else is doing great....I am so confused! Colonial Mustard acts as if nothing is wrong! Anyhoo, here are some pics. I included a pic of the fuzz stuff that was on/in Platos tank. I keep it in a test tube to watch it grow. It takes over everything, eve the food I put in there. Crazy weird green fuzz. Haven't seen any on these guys....YET! *knocks on wood* Thanks again! www.facebook.com/media/set/fbx/?set=a.10150555196355291.647152.822675290&l=3ff64472e1 |
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Post by parker002 on Apr 21, 2011 10:52:36 GMT -5
The green fuzz looks like algae to me. Really not anything to worry about other than it indicates that your water is probably building up nutrients (especially nitrates) and needs to be changed.
Using spring water isn't a big deal - in fact, given what you've said, it's probably the best you can do. I actually agree that using tap water isn't viable if you're constantly on the move.
Get some Wonder Shells and re-mineralize your water. That can help tremendously.
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Post by starspun on Apr 21, 2011 12:29:04 GMT -5
The green fuzz looks like algae to me. Really not anything to worry about other than it indicates that your water is probably building up nutrients (especially nitrates) and needs to be changed. Using spring water isn't a big deal - in fact, given what you've said, it's probably the best you can do. I actually agree that using tap water isn't viable if you're constantly on the move. Get some Wonder Shells and re-mineralize your water. That can help tremendously. Thanks for writing! I have some wondershells in my cart, just waiting for a good addy to send them to, hehe! So the algae stuff, actually, started off as one piece. It was the fungus stuff I found on Platos tail. Actually it started off as the piece that dropped of his tail (a piece of his tail included). I stuck it in a cup and threw a freeze died bloodworm in there. Within a few hours (in the DARK) it had spread! I keep it in a test tube to watch it. Can algae grow in the dark? More importantly can it hurt fish and attach itself to them? I've had algae in the past but nothing like like this stuff. I am sure it's what killed my poor Plato I am not so sure it is Algae though because I clean their water everyday and they are not near the light. When I clean their tanks 100% every other day, I scrub the insides too. This all is just so bizarre.... |
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Post by starspun on Apr 21, 2011 13:54:41 GMT -5
Ok new update! We have a common symptom! It's what started Plato on his downward spiral. I think the fungus was just something that happened AFTER the fact. Kyandii has none of that! BUT, he has the red blood spots on the end of his anal fin, JUST like Plato first developed (and what made us wonder what was wrong!) Today, they are worse than last night....I barely noticed them last night. This is the same thing I just KNOW IT. When I contacted a fish pharmacy line in the beginning with Plato, they were SURE it was a parasite. Maybe that's what it is? But it only attacks the ends of the fins. Starting with the anal fin, then spreading to the ends of the tail and dorsal. How strange is this? Does ANYONE recognize this? I want to treat him today but I am not sure with what. The fish place said do it with PRAZIPRO which is hard to find. Are there any other choices? I have my own fish pharmacy going on here! I have never heard or seen this problem in all my Google searching. Here is a picture of Plato, after it spread. It started out as a tiny red blood spot at the end of his anal fin.  Here is Kyandii now....with the red spots starting on his anal fin. Also the ends are starting to curl, just like Plates!  |
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Post by goldenpuon on Apr 21, 2011 20:35:16 GMT -5
Hi Starspun. I talked with Carl via phone about your bettas and discussed what is most likely afflicting them. From what he knows (he has not viewed your pictures yet due to being on the road), Carl thinks what is most likely affecting them is what Plato had and that it is not a parasite.
He recommended using tapwater due to lack of minerals fish need in springwater or adding minerals to it.
As for my feedback, I am starting to think this may be nitrite or ammonia poisoning. But I REALLY need to know your water parameters, (PH, Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, KH, and GH) to know it is that for sure.
I rarely have ammonia or nitrite poisoning with my own fish (though I did often when I first started keeping fish). One of the symptoms is reddened fins such as what your fish have.
It also looks like the fish are very weak and have Colunmaris or Saprolegnia like Plato did. If the fish have ammonia or nitrite poisoning and have damaged fins as a result, they are open to opportunistic infections. I recommend treating with salt, Methylene Blue, and Nitrofurazone and Kanamycin in a bath as Carl mentioned and as in in-tank treatment, give the fish Kanaplex and Nitrofurazone. (Unlike some medications, these two combine well without dangerous effects.
About the fuzz appearing on the food, with sick fish- particularly ones that are not eating and with are in containers/tanks with poor circulation, I have had colunmaris attack the fish and the food. I had this scenario when I kept bettas where a fish would get sick and not finish all its food and then I would discover teh fish as well as the food with colunmaris growing on it. The food was much more likely to be affected than the fish if the fish was fairly well but left food over. With my bettas, this became frustrating because sometimes a healthy betta would only want to eat off the surface and then leave uneaten food at the bottom and not try to get it because it would get white and fluffy mold on it in just 10 or less hours.
What was MOST frustating is it came back even after sterilizing with hot water or emptying the containers I kept bettas in when I bred them.
To make a long story short, I am very familiar with saprolegnia and/or colunmaris type things infecting food as well as fish.
My advice for keeping the it from growing on the food is to try to feed the bettas nutritious food they like and remove any uneaten food an hour or so after feeding. Also, good mineralization should help too.
For these fish, though springwater is probably ok if minerals are added to it, I would definitely recommend that you had a buffer that like SeaChem Alkaline Buffer or wonder shells. Lack of proper minerals may be contributing to the the fish not being in the best health although I think the main issue is most likely ammonia and nitrite poisoning and saprolegnia or columnaris. (Keep in mind these are two different diseases but are similar in some ways such as appearing white and fuzzy.)
Best of luck! I hope your fish recover quickly.
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Post by starspun on Apr 25, 2011 13:42:52 GMT -5
Heya!
So sorry it's taken me so long to write back.
First off I'd like to say that I have some those shells in my cart and I'd also like to get a GH and KH tester kit. Just waiting for my next address to be figured out;-)
As for the parameters of my water, everything is at PERFECT levels that I can see. The ammonia stays between 0-.25. When it hits .25, I change it....
This is why I cannot believe it could be due to ammonia poisoning (nitrites are at 0). All of my other fish are doing better than before....it just seem to be this select few. I think I had a contamination problem but now they all have their own turkey basters with their name on it. So that won't happen again!
As for my two others doing bad. One seems to be recovering. He is wild, looks much better and his fins are starting to unclamp. I thought he was starting to get a 'red dot' but it is gone now.
As for the other one, (Kyandii), well....he seems better too, but I am not sure. In a desperate attempt to save him before he got worse, we took him out between two wet paper towels and I cut all the red sores off. Then it was a medicated bath of the Blue, and a bit of salt. He looked REALLY bad then, but it was more due to stress. I put him in clean water after about 45 min, and let him chill out a bit. I added a drop of Aquarisol to a gallon of water, and ALL the fish got this change of water. A trick from a breeder:-) Everyone is doing great....and Kyandii so far has not gotten the red dots back. He is still a bit clamped, maybe not as bad as before.
But here is the strange thing. The pieces of fin I cut, they look all 'flowy' now. But where I didn't cut, still 'stiff' looking. VERY strange. I will see how he does this week, and if it's the same, I am going to cut the rest of them too.
I have no idea why this problem would go away after trimming....and I have no idea if the medications helped at all. I will add more info in a few days. I really hope the little guy pulls through, he is a trooper this one! And his appetite for food has not dwindled....he jumps out of the water when he sees my hand.
OH and BTW with these two....NO fungus. Very strange.
And as for that pic I had with the fungus, it actually started with a piece of Platos tail covered with the stuff. I put it in a cup alone and added food, and that's how it spread. I wanted to see what would happen....
Will update soon. Have also started to use half spring and half tap water for now until I can get those shells!
Thanks so much for everyones help. This whole thing is crazy....I wish I had decided to cut Platos tail sooner, though I am not sure if it would have helped him, he was so advanced so quickly. Kyandii now has been sick for over a week! *sigh*
Fickle fish! Heh!
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Post by Carl on Apr 25, 2011 15:53:47 GMT -5
Glad to read your ammonia is good (.25 is not going to cause this problem).
Goldenpuon was correct in asking though as these are common symptoms of ammonia poisoning.
Can you provide KH, GH and pH as well, as these too can contribute to this type of problem (not generally a direct cause like ammonia though)?
If the infection is not systemic, cutting can actually help, but if it is systemic it will unfortunately likely bounce back.
Baths can often by themselves (assuming 100% in all water parameters) take care these problems. The only precaution is stress, but in my experience usually the stress of the disease is worse than the stress of a properly given bath; in part because a sick fish knows that it is sick, and instincts tell him/her to take cover because instincts also dictate that other fish (that are not even present often) may be out to get weaker sick fish.
This all "snow balls" into a fish that stresses itself because of an infection thus further allowing opportunistic infections to thrive (such as Columnaris, which is still my guess of what is going on with your fish).
Goldenpuon has also noted to me her experience with covering fish to speed a cure to some fish illnesses, this goes along with my theories of fish stress and why covering may be a good idea until your fish recover.
Carl
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Post by starspun on May 3, 2011 14:53:12 GMT -5
Hi again!
Thanks so much Carl for the response! Sorry I have not written back to update sooner, we've been 'way out' with lack of internet, and then traveling into the cities to pack a whole bunch of things into one day. Whew!
Kyandii is still with us, and has gained much of his color back as well as all of his energy. This is after we cut the sores off of his fins. The fins that we cut look to be growing back. The ones that we didn't (that were minus the sores) are not growing, and look to have darker edges to them. His ventrils are still clamped but look to be let up some. I am thinking that after a couple more weeks I will attempt to trim the fins that are not growing and still look 'stiff'. I have googled this, and have found nothing. Maybe this is some kind of strange disease. I had someone mention TB, which scares me, but I am not sure if this is the case. Colonial Mustard, my beautiful mustard gas male had all the symptoms that Kyandii had minus the red sores and the lethargy. He is also starting to unclamp slightly, but I still may need to trim his dorsal, as it is not growing back either. Other than that, his color has returned. I treated both, but Colonial Mustard had much less treatment. I am trying to see if he comes out of it on his own. Both are eating fine....
While this was going on, Platos sister became ill. UGH. Mali lost all her color, and was breathing very hard at the bottom, often on her side. She'd have a sudden 'freak out' and then lay down again. I couldn't decide whether it was flashing or not. One day, she seemed better, was not hard breathing etc, so I thought she was over it. A couple of days later, she was WORSE! I decided to treat with Maracide, thinking it may have been a parasite. I saw some improvements, and while she had no color and barely energy, she was at least swimming around and eating. This all started a few days after her tail looked a bit 'tattered'. She is a rosetail, like Plato, and has a beautiful long tail for a female!
Now here is the big thing, and I think you, Carl, are VERY correct about the minerals.
We are staying out near Santa Barbara, in a valley within the mountains and apparently the campground gets their water from the streams here and treats it. I tested it, and it seemed PERFECT. Since your advice, I was using treated tap water and spring water, half and half. Here however, I decided to go right with the mountain water, as the place I get my spring water (Target) was far away. WELL! The fish LOVE IT. I do believe it would be mineral rich....and lets just say my sick guys are even colorful! While the two males are still a bit clamped, Mali has gotten color that I've never seen her with....she is a platinum butterfly, and has now developed grey colors just like Plato had! I think she is fully recovered (*knocks on wood*) It must be the water, I have done nothing else different. I think the minerals in water may be very overlooked with these fish. I am shocked! I finally have a shipping address and will be ordering quite a few of your shells this week.
I will continue to update here. Thank you everyone for your help and advice. I only wish I could have saved my other two....but they already seemed so far gone. I am glad these guys are such fighters....even Kyadii the runt has surprised me!
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