Help! Sick Tetra!

[goldenpuon]

I have a female black phantom tetra I have had for a year now. I got her with 9 other black phantom tetras (some have died.)

But anyway, she lives in a 10 gallon with 4 other black phantom tetras, 3 females and 1 male.

Currently, she is very hollow-bellied and breathing heavily. She is also pale and then I shine a light on her, I can see the area around one of her gills seems pink as if irritated. (I am sure if it is just because she is pale and the light that made her gills look like that but I am unsure.)

She has no other external symptoms.

I noticed something was up last night when she seemed to be keeping to herself and she did not 'look' quite right.

I believe she has been pretty skittish for some time (unless this was another of the females) because over the past month, I have had a female that would stay back when the otehr ate so I'd have to spread the food around the tank to make sure she go it.

However, I do NOT think she was hollow-bellied/very skinny looking until very recently.

I tested her tank just yesterday ( for unrelated reasons) and got:

PH: 7.6
KH: around 120
GH: Hard
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: (hard to remember) anywhere from just below 10 to below 20.

Her tank is very clean and the water was last changed/tank vaccumed out on Monday, the 13th.

I believe the cause of her illness was excessive chasing in the first 6 months I had her due tohaving 4 territorial males blak phantoms in witrh her and the other females who chased and nipped thier fins a lot.

I do not think chasing is an issue now because there is a lot of cover, only 1 male, and the other 3 females have mild 'mock' battles but keep to themselves and do not hurt each other.

Any ideas on what this female tetra could have? I fear her time is limited...

Thanks.

EDIT: I wanted to add a little more to clarify about what is going on with the tetra.

I fed the tetras and she IS eating. I saw her eat a bite and spit it out but I think she got some.

As well, her paleness seems to be stress related from being ill. I doubt it is Neon Tetra Disease or False Neon Tetra disease.

As well, none of the other fish in the tank are showing these symptoms. Nor has there been any nitrite or ammonia spike that would have caused a problem.

I have not sure what she has but my guesses include an internal parasite, wasting disease, a possible gill parasite or maybe even being stressed from spawning (I have not seen any spawning but it is a guess.)

Thanks. And once again, input/ideas are appreciated!

[bikeguy33]

i dont feel this is any of this. you lead me to believe that she is a timid female. she will hide and prolly only eat when there is food very very close to her hiding spot. you are doing the right thing by spreading out the food throughout the hole upper foot print. without you spreading grub out over the surfaCE SHE WOULD SURELY STARVE to death. maybe over feed the tank and do bigger more frequent water changes...

[goldenpuon]

That could be it Bill. However, I check on my fish more often than this. I'm sure I would have noticed much sooner. As well, I just did a water change Sunday and I always do a 'fish count' and briefly look over the fish for anything unusual.

I knowthis happened very fast- her becoming so thin. Even though I sometimes I can't tell the 4 females apart, I also look at the tank a few times a day.

She literally looks so thin that she hasn't eaten in months and I guarantee I would have seen her getting thinner over time. The rest opf the fish in the tank are plump and I am abolsutely sure she was not like that a few days ago.

I keep a very close eye on all my fish. For example, my goldfish Puon, who I have had over 5 years and suffers from severe bloating problems, I notice any change very fast. The same goes for all my others.

I really doubt this is starvation. However, I will make a point of getting food to her. As well, I have the tank partially covered with a dark towel right now which seems to ease stress in fish.

Renee

[goldenpuon]

Today the tetra is not eating well at all. She seems to want to stay in her hiding place which is by a leafy plastic plant at the middleish top level of the tank.

She still looks extremley thin but her coloring (perhaps due to the darkness from the towel) is better.

I am giving the fish extra and I made a point of putting more food near her when I fed the tetras tonight. However, because I put it RIGHT up to her I may have scared her a bit from eating.

So right now I have the light turned off in the room and am not near the tank in hopes that will get her to eat.

[Carl]

I also feel this is a timid fish that has now become very weak and maybe sick due to this problem.

The problem is the weakness caused by this may have caused internal organ damage that is irraversible..

Besides the feeding suggestion already given, I would consider the use of Methylene Blue in a bath/quarantine tank.
I know this is a chemical you do not like to use, however the increase of oxygen in the cells that MB increases is about the only procedure I can think of that might help.

Good luck

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for the help Carl.

I isolated her last night in a 3 gallon plastic container with a plastic plant from the tank, heater, and bubbler.

She is not showing any interest in food. (This in my experience is normal when tetras are first transfered top a new area.) However, I know her lack of appetite the day before is really teh culprit.

Carl and Bill, do you think this could be neon tetra or false neon tetra disease? Or wasting disease?

She has been acting like this 3 days now and still no nodules appearing. However, when I looked at her last night, (I am unsure if this is just the remaining part on the tetra's belly that is typically lighter than the rest of their bodies) but I saw her underside looked sort of whitish. -One of teh symptoms of neon tetra or false neon tetra disease. She looks horribly starved with her belly indented inward.

The other tetras remaining in the 10 gallon seem fine. However, I am not happy with how much chasing they get with just one male ion there. I am sure that when there was 4 males in there (before 2 died over the past years and the other is in a tank of his own now) stressed the females/reduced their lifsepans.

I don't think theis fish will make it but I'm going to give it my best shot.

Renee

[goldenpuon]

I am sorry but i can't use MB. i can use wondershells but I don't know much much it will help since this is an internal problem very likely. Could a wondershell save this fish? i don't want to medicate wihtout knowing what's wrong and do so mindlessly.

Early this afternoon, I notcied something thin peeking from the tetra's vent. At first I thought it was waste but it was thinner than that and now, hours later, it is still there. I wonder if it is her intestines or something else.

I am thinking I might euthanize her. It's almost like she is being eaten from the inside out with the sudden thiness and then the strange thing from her vent.

On the other hand, I am hoping she will somehow make and I also want to see hwo whatever she has plays out so I can identify and treat it effectively iif other fish get it in the tank. As well, I am hoping to identify exactly what she has so maybe can treat her effectively.

Whatever happens, if she dies, I'm going to try to cut her body open to see what is going on inside that is causing all of this...

I just hope it is not wasting or neon tetra disease...

[Carl]

Your description does not match Neon Tetra Disease or FNT Disease.

The Medicated Wonder Shells, may help, but I feel Methylene Blue at full strength may do more to improve oxygen internally than the Medicated Wonder Shells would (Kanamycin may also help).

What you are observing with your Tetras vent could quite possibly be her intestines, as I have seen this with badly emaciated fish where internal organs are collapsing.
However I cannot state this categorically as It can also be a symptom of internal parasites or Aeromonas bacterial infections, but your comments & care lead me to be this is simply a fish that is "shutting down" internally.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

For this, I am very thankful- that you do not think it is NTD or FNTD!

Thanks for the tips and info. I will see what I can do in regards to her.

I will keep you posted.

Renee

[goldenpuon]

Whatever was in the tetra's vent seems to be gone now. I have not looked at her really closely today but I didn't see any changes as far as external appearance.

I was also very surprised when this morning when I tired to feed her, that she seemed to be paying mild attention to the food as if beginning to consider going after it! It may have been my imagination but this is the first time I really saw her move at all from her stationary position close to bubbler in the hospital tank. I cleaned uneaten food out of her tank (actually plastic container) today and did a fairly small water change.

As well, none of the other tetras seem to be sick.

However, when I fed them at 9 this morning and and also a coupel other times after I removed the sick female, I noticed a female hiding. However, as soon as she realized food was nearby, she rushed out from the cover and joined the other fish.

Granted, I can't tell the females apart so thsi could have been any female taking refuge by the plants. As well, I sometimes feed my tetras later at night like 8 pm (it gets dark by 5 pm,) so sometimes a tetra or two is around the plants sleeping when I feed them.

I am keeping a very close eye on all the fish in the tank and any I find hiding out before feeding.

[goldenpuon]

The fish that is emaciated is still alive and MAY be eating. I am unsure because she has been very shy about eating when I am around since the transfer to the 3 gallon. However, I see her move such as dash to the top as if trying to grab a bite or moving around a tiny bit from her usual swimming location.

However, when I did a water change in the 10 gallon with the other 4 tetras, I noticed one of the females had a section on both sides of her on her gills where they look like they are slightly red/eroded. It is a small area on a small fish so it is possible she had this but I did not notice it before. However, she is a normal weight unlike the other female thaty got sick recently.

Her vent area also looks funny. Kind of like she has a white egg tube that female bettas have. This is not normal for a tetra.

I looked at her for any other signs but I didn't notice any. Despite her gills being somewhat red/eroded, I didn't see her breathing heavily.

All the other fish in the tank look fine. I also tested the water to rule out nitrite poisoning. (note: I tested the water after my hand had been in there for 30 minutes siphoning so the results may be a bit off. This is also BEFORE I refilled the tank.)

Nitrate: under 10
Nitrite: 0
GH: about 150
KH: 130
PH: about 7.2-7.6

My concern now is if this female is coming down with something and if it has a connection to what the other has. I am not sure if the gill thing is soemthing she has had a while and if the vent is variation/something taht will go away.

Also, I am concerned about the other female in isolation that is not/barely eating and still looking very thin.

Any input to what is going on is appreciated.

Thanks.

Renee

[Carl]

Have you attempted to treat her yet?

A treatment regimen of Kanamycin (Kanaplex) & Metronidazole may[/i] be helpful

Can you provide a picture?

I am still of the opinion that this is a weak fish, only suffering from degenerative disease which is almost impossible to treat unless the underlying weakness were to subside, which sadly this does not usually happen IME unless the care prior to the onset of the fish' weakness was poor, but since your care and water conditions are good, there is little room for improvement other than a UV Sterilizer.

That said a parasite is a possibility, which the Metronidazole would help with (this can also be used at double strength in a bath, but a bath should not take the place of an in tank or hospital tank treatment).

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I admit I have not. I was expecting her to pass but she is still alive.

I have notiuced a small amount of waste which is good but she is as thin as an emaciated neon tetra now! (of which neons are much skinnier than black phantom tetras on average.)

However, the other female in the tank- the one with that I mentioned had teh strange vent and something wrong with her gills has lost weight since yesterday! She is eating but I fear she has the same pathogen as the other female- which I would now classify as contageous.

I am going to treat both the isolated fish and main tank with Kanaplex and Metronidizole. I am about to leave the house so I can't get a picture yet but I will get one posted today.

(I feel awful for not treating this fish and the tank. I did not treat because I thought it was non-contageous since no other fish were showing signs and she seemed so weak. )

Renee

[goldenpuon]

Ok, I puty Kanplex in both tanks but do not have Metronidizole. Will kanaplex work ok alone or do I need to put another medication in?

I have Furan 2 and triple Sulfa on hand as well as other meds.

[Carl]

First I would not feel bad about "not treating the tank" as we gave you this advice

Anyway, if at all possible, I would obtain Metronidazole or a product containing it such as Jungle/Tetra Parasite Clear (although be careful with combination treatments when already using Kanaplex).
The Metronidazole is what is necessary for a possible internal parasite.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Carl. I often feel bad like I don't do enough for my fish when they are ill even though I take good care of them.

I do have Parasite Clear made by Jungle if memory serves. However, the tablets are very very old.

As well, I have the Jungle Antiparasite medicane that is fed to fish. (This would be good for the main tank but not for the female that is barely/not eating.)

I was very stressed/worried after seeing how thin the female that was not eating was this morning plus I was in a huge hurry. I looked at teh fish in the main tank again and it appears I was 'imagining' things with the other female losing weight. I am NOT saying her vent or gills are normal- her gills still look a bit eroded and her vent looks odd. However, she is eating very well and acting fine.

Sorry for the misinfo.

I am thinking it wouldn't hurt to treat the main tank as well just in case.

Would a combo of Kanaplex and feeding them Jungle Anti-Parasite medicane work well in combination for the main tank? (Note: This would just be a preventative in case there is any internal parasite in the tank/in case one of them caught the disease from the sick tetra.)

As well, with the sick tetra in isolation, should I do a water change to get the Kanaplex out before I add the Parasite Clear? I just did a water change yesterday/to remove uneaten food and do not want to stress her extra with water changes. Should I wait a couple days before doing a water change to remove the Kanaplex and adding the Parasite Clear or should I keep the Kanaplex in there and perhaps give 3/4 of a normal dose of the Parasite Clear?

Thanks for the help.

Renee

EDIT: I tried to get a picture of the sick tetra in isolation. However, I discovered that the battery was so low after my mom used the camera that it was shutting off. I am charging it now and will get pictures as soon as it is done.

[Carl]

You likely should be fine with the Kanamycin WITH the Jungle Parasite Clear in the isolation tank, just monitor it closely. An isolation tank is the best place to "mix" strong meds since environmental concerns are not as great, also you are dealing with a very sick fish where strong "shotgun" treatment may be necessary (asssuming any medication can work).
If possible, Methylene Blue baths would help as well (since this helps internally).

For the main tank a precautionary treatment of Kanaplex and Medicated Anti-Parasite Food should be reasonably safe.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for the prompt response and info Carl. I finally got the pictures and also a video.

I had to get the fish in a small container to get good pictures/video.

s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq297/goldenpuon/?action=view¤t=100_4503.mp4

[bikeguy33]

the pics are a lil out of focus.....but the tetra doesn`t look that bad outside of the fins. i was expecting MUCH MUCH thinner. I have seen worse , but have also seen better. carry on with carl`s recomendations and we`ll all keep our fingers crossed.

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Bill. However, this is not a species of tetra that is naturally slender. She is a black phantom tetra.

I healthy individual of this species has a very narrow body when viewed from top but is fairly tall looking when viewed from the side.

If this was a naturally thinner species, I would not be as worried.

This is a picture of a healthy female black phantom tetra in the link below.

www.aquaticquotient.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3193&catid=member&imageuser=264

To clarify about the fins, when I had 4 black phantom tetras and 6 females (which is originally what I had a year ago when I bought them), lots of nipping/chasing went on. I was unsure of the fine line between a healthy about of aggression for a semi-aggressive species like this and too much. I remember posting about it on here before eventually deciding to separate the males from the females. At this point, all my female tetras and also my male have fin tears/damage that is permanent.

As for what happened to the rest of the fish, 3 out of the 5 that have died did so due to mishaps such as getting caught on the filter intake when I first got the fish before I put a mesh over it and one that jumped out despite the tank being 90% covered. The other two died of illness and/or stress/being weak fish.

That said, thanks for the input Bill. I am glad this is not the worst you have seen and that there is still hope for this fish.

Renee