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Post by aquaglory on Aug 23, 2010 22:17:36 GMT -5
Tank Size: 36 gallon bowfront Age of the tank: New (day 9 of cycling) pH: 6.8 Ammonia: 1 NitrAtes: 5 nitrites: 0 GH/KH: hard, but don't know specifically Temperature: 77 F Fish in your tanks: no Fish: Question/Problem: Hello everyone. I apologize in advance for this long post, but I wanted to give as much detail as possible in the hopes that it would help anyone who might be able to help me figure things out. I figured I would introduce myself a little. Just to clarify things, since I was insulted by the staff of another forum (yea, really, by a descriptive they used under my "call name"), I'm not trying to be fat-headed. My call name comes from my 6 year old daughter calling her first male Betta "Glory" and my just attaching "Aqua" to that name, because I think there can be some glorious things to see/find/learn in having aquariums. So my call name is in honor of my daughter and her first fish love.
I have had fish most of my life, since I was at least 5 years old. I went through the beginner Guppies, Goldfish, to Tetras (including cardinals), to breeding (amateur level for fun) White Cloud Mountain Minnows, Plecos, Kribensis, Brichardi cyclids, among other fish I kept, to running a mini 20 gallon reef tank, then stopped having any fish at all for about a decade. Now I got back into it because of my daughter (it's amazing how much you can forget in a decade... and remember again by making rookie mistakes :0)). Anyway, I've had some Yellow Neocaridina shrimp in my 5 gallon tank with the son of Glory (Moon-glow) for about a year and am a bit tired of the higher maintenance of a small tank, plus I would like to give the shrimp a better home, where they can have more hiding places and more room to run from Moon-glow-- thus, I'm at the point of cycling a 36 gallon tank....
Here are the things that I added to the 36 gallon on day 1 of cycling:
--From the well-established 5 gallon tank (mentioned above), I transferred a piece of driftwood and some water. --A second piece of driftwood that I bought from Petco that had been in an aquarium long enough for the original potted plant that was "shoved" into it to have died off. At Petco, there was Java moss starting to grow on the driftwood, but I removed it because I don't want it to clog my filter. --Two african root pieces of driftwood that I got from another LFS that were dry at the time I bought them. --I floated the media for the AquaClear filter in the 5 gallon tank for about a day before placing it in the new filter (I know... not a long time). --Bacteria that is the Topfin (Petsmart) brand. --Various plants (Cryptocoryne, Myriophyllum, Ludwigia repens, one Marimo moss ball, a banana plant and some small java fern attached to the driftwood from the 5 gallon tank) --Special plant-growing substrate that I got on Aquabid called "Baylees Better Bottom". --Freeze dried tubifex worms for ammonia.
The Cryptocoryne from Petco were rather beat up by my rinsing them in tap water and rubbing all the algae that was on them off and were starting to disintegrate, so I figured they would provide enough ammonia that I would not have to add any more (they have since started to sprout new leaves), though more of the original leaves are disintegrating.
The ammonia crept up to 0.5ppm by around day 5, with zero nitrites and nitrate. On the 7th day, I added Tetra Safe Start, that I got from Petsmart, to the new tank to try to help speed up the cycling process. (Of course, I then came across the article explaining that if it was not properly shipped/stored, it could be completely useless). On day 8, my ammonia was 1, nitrite 0, and nitrate 5-- these have remained at these levels today, day 9, as well. I never got a nitrite spike that entire time from day 1 of cycling. I'm a bit confused. Does this mean that there was some brief cycling that then stopped?
One more thing: I intend to eventually keep yellow shrimp and possibly CRS shrimp, as well, so I made myself a sponge cover over the intake of the AquaClear filter so the baby shrimp would not get sucked up. It didn't take long to clog up and slow the flow. The first time, I squeezed the sponge in the aquarium to try to clear it a bit for improved flow. It mucked up the water, but I figured that would help raise the ammonia to encourage the bacteria to grow. Today, I noticed the flow dragging again, so this time, I rinsed out the sponge cover in treated water until the water was almost clear. (This filter is rated up to 50 gallons for my 36 gallon tank.) I also have brown algae growing all over the tank, filter/ filter media, and gravel. I am leaving it alone for now, unless someone tells me to do otherwise.
I have just purchased a single strip of Daylight Grow 500 LED lights (right now I'm blanking on the exact name of the American Aquarium Products light-- sorry) and it was just shipped to me today. I hope it will stimulate faster plant growth to take up more nitrate. I also intend on adding some Water Wisteria to help suck up the nitrates and some Alternantera reineckii for color, once I can get my hands on some.
Another question in relation: should I do a water change? If so how much and how many times? My tank is TEASING me!!! Is it close to cycled or am I being fooled? Do I wait until the ammonia goes to zero before adding fish (shrimp are not going in first, just to clarify). Are the dying leaves from the plants not producing enough ammonia to help the cycling? I would really rather not have to go out to buy ammonia to add to the tank, but I also (like SOOOO many people) am dying to get my tank going-- Am I asking for too much?
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Post by aquaglory on Aug 24, 2010 12:38:04 GMT -5
I rechecked my parameters today (day 10 of cycling): Ammonia 1, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5. I rechecked the pH and it is actually about 7.2, not 6.8. Out of curiosity, I checked the tap water after treating with API tap water conditioner: Ammonia 1, Nitrate 0 (I have to admit that I didn't check the Nitrite), pH 7.8. I reduced my pH to 7.2 by filtering crushed Vitamin C (Nature Made Vit C without any rose hips or other ingredients like that) through a coffee filter (placed in a medium-large net)-- half a teaspoon in 5 gallons. I have been adjusting my pH like this for more than a year without any fluctuation in the pH once it is adjusted (no matter how long I go between water changes)-- not what I expected, but sure is nice to know that it is stable. My shrimp and fish have not minded the Vit C. I did a small water change in my 36 gallon today after checking the parameters as above. This time, I did not add Amquel, as I had done up to now, only the API tap water conditioner. This way, my ammonia should stay at 1 and the nitrate hopefully will be a bit lower. Well, anyway, I hope someone sees this post and can help me. Thank you in advance to anyone who can!
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Post by Carl on Aug 24, 2010 20:46:38 GMT -5
I am not totally clear as to your questions, so please re-state if I do not answer well. Here are a few thoughts: *Dying/decaying Plants leaves will add to the bio load and only slow the cycling process by requiring more bacteria both Heterotrophic and Autotrophic, so dying leaves should be removed *Amquel Plus or Prime are much better products for allowing for the cycling process all the while removing only the toxic ammonia NH3 and not NH4 * I have found using aged filter media for seeding a much faster and reliable way to cycle *Most Cycling aids are primarily Heterotrophic bacteria and there fore do not truly take the place of natural Autotrophic bacteria necessary for a healthy tank *Please read this article for more: Aquarium Nitrogen cycle*Also for stable aquarium chemistry such as pH. KH and the often misunderstood GH, please see this article (although your method is good IMHO as well): Aquarium ChemistryCarl
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Post by aquaglory on Aug 26, 2010 21:38:22 GMT -5
Hi Carl. Thanks for the fast response. OK..... This is my third attempt at updating/responding. Let's hope it works, this time. I tried to answer the other day, but had technical glitches then, too... As for the advice on the decaying/dying leaves: Thank you. I removed as much of it as I could as soon as I could. As for the Amquel Plus-- this is the product I was using, so I apologize if I gave a different impression. Question related to that, though: If Amquel Plus removes/ neutralizes ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, how do you know when your tank has cycled if you are using this product? If I understand you correctly, does this mean that the bacteria can use ammonium instead of ammonia and still proliferate? I had already read your Aquarium Nitrogen cycle article (very carefully written and informative, btw). I was just puzzled by my readings, since my nitrite levels have never gone up during this whole time (even though I had nitrates showing up). Plus, I still had some ammonia, too. In addition, these parameters were like that for days. Does this mean that there was some cycling that went on that then stopped? Today, day 12 of cycling, my ammonia read at 0.25 (maybe slightly less), nitrite 0, and nitrate 10. Is it premature to think that the cycling process is almost complete? I also noticed fine little white worms that I think might be tubifex worms (because they are creating little tubes on the rocks/plants/aquarium glass). I had these in my 5 gallon, too, before the shrimp ate them up once they were placed in the tank. I have to admit that I don't know what hardness the water is, but I would assume that it is hard because the pH of the tap water is around 7.8 plus we tend to get a lot of calcarious build-up. I had been using magnesium (epsom salt), but until I read your Aquarium Chemistry article, I didn't realize how important calcium and other minerals were to fish, as well. I had dropped some Calcium pills in the tank for the shrimp in the beginning, but then just relied on them getting the calcium from the algae wafers I was giving them. I wish I had read about the wonder shells before ordering the Aqua Ray Grow Beam 500 from you. I would have included it in my order. Sigh.... Do you know if I can get these shells from a LFS? Thanks again. I am truly impressed at how you take our questions so seriously and devote so much of your time to answer them. It is truly appreciated. Nicole
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Post by Carl on Aug 27, 2010 11:51:40 GMT -5
Generally speaking you will see the ammonia readings rise (then fall) as well the nitrites will do similar followed by a rise in nitrates (that generally do not fall unless you have anaerobic bacterial activity or other means of nitrate removal). The aerobic bacteria can consume the ammonium. I am guessing that you may have a partially cycled aquarium based on your previous post/comments or at the very least the additives containing Heterotrophic bacteria have consumed much of the nutrients resulting in your non existent nitrite readings Many stores in California sell these, otherwise there might be similar products as noted in the Aquarium Chemistry Article. As well purchasing these online is generally quite inexpensive since they are sold at a price under the suggested retail as sold in LFS. Carl
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Post by aquaglory on Aug 27, 2010 21:17:53 GMT -5
Hi Carl.
As an update: I'm on day 13 of cycling and my readings are as follows: ammonia nearly zero (definitely under 0.25ppm and not quite totally 0), nitrite 0, and nitrate about 15.
I see even more worms than yesterday and my plants are all showing some growth. I'm thinking of doing another water change tomorrow and begin adding some fish (no more than 3 small ones). Anyone, please let me know if you don't think this is a good idea at this point.
Thanks!
Nicole
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Post by Carl on Aug 28, 2010 10:38:38 GMT -5
I forgot to address your worm question, these are most likely Detritus Worms, and are generally not a major concern (in fact they aid in decomposition of waste, they only become a problem when their population explodes due to too much waste and they compete for oxygen) Based on your parameters and the products you used, I think you could add a few small fish. You could always add more Amquel Plus, as well you can add products such as SeaChem Stability or utilize "seeded" filter media from another healthy tank
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Post by aquaglory on Aug 28, 2010 21:28:03 GMT -5
Thanks Carl. Today, day 14 of cycling, my parameters were: Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, and nitrate 10. I added some more Amquel plus, then added 3 cardinal tetras (smaller than an inch). I just added them, so I'll see how they fair tomorrow-- so far, they seem to like their environment. I also got your AquaRay Gro Beam 500 today. Definitely brightens the tank. I hope my plants like it, too. My Ludwigia repens (broadleaf) was growing at the tips, but dropping its lower leaves, so I hope it, in particular, likes the new light. Question about the Gro Beam 500: I saw in the warnings that you need to give it a minimum of 10mm birth above the fixture for heat dissipation (I think that's the reason). I have it just sitting on the plexiglass that is part of the cover, but the top of it is probably only about 3mm from the T8 tube that is in the original fixture. Will this cause a problem? I suppose I could just remove the T8, but it does still add a little to the scene and I figure it will be just that little bit more light for the plants. Is it not worth it to keep the T8 tube there? Thanks in advance. Nicole
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Post by Carl on Aug 29, 2010 12:33:22 GMT -5
The T8 next to the LED should be fine. I would be a little concerned as per moisture and light distribution with the LED Light directly on the plexiglass cover, so if the fixture could be raised, I would suggest this. Otherwise for heat dissipation adding vents in the side and the top of hoods generally has worked well for me for most lights (except for MH) Carl
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Post by babygeige on Aug 30, 2010 15:02:11 GMT -5
Hi there! Welcome to the forum! I just wanted to add my own personal experience with the detritus worms. I had them in my 10 gallon tank briefly once. My betta liked to eat them, but they creeped me out, so I cut back on the amount of food I was using a bit and they went away pretty quickly. Once your tank gets settled, I'm sure they'll disappear.
Good luck with your new tank! Keep us posted!
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Post by aquaglory on Aug 30, 2010 17:23:52 GMT -5
Hi babygeige! Thanks for the welcome. Actually, I find those worms really cool to watch. To me, I see them as a sign that the water is becoming hospitable to life. I had a lot of them that were in my 5 gal. that my betta fry were feasting on. Then later, when I added yellow shrimp, the shrimp completely cleaned them out, along with the detritus! Already, I don't see as many as before in the 36 gal., so I'm wondering if the cardinals are not nibbling on them, too (after all, the cardinals seem mildly plump despite not devouring the Spirulina I'm offering them). I guess, why eat spinach when candy's available?!
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Post by babygeige on Aug 31, 2010 21:37:42 GMT -5
Yeah, I bet your cardinals are eating them, lol. Well then 2 birds are being taken care of with 1 stone! Fewer worms, and the cardinals are getting food from somewhere at least.
If I remember correctly, some of my fish took a while to get used to the Spirulina for some reason. Just picky I guess. But now they all eat it up like crazy.
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Post by aquaglory on Sept 3, 2010 9:43:16 GMT -5
Hi babygeige. The Cardinals are started to get a little taste for the Spirulina-- I guess they're running low on worms, lol. UPDATE ON THE CYCLING: -On Day 16 of cycling (I think), my nitrates went up to 20 with ammonia and nitrites still 0. I did a water change for the cardinals at that point. -Then on Day 17 or 18 (about 2-3 days ago) I finally got some nitrite showing up-- went up to 0.5, with ammonia sneaking up almost to 0.25, and nitrate around 15. I finally got a hold of some water wisteria (fresh off the shipment) as well as some Teleranthera reinikii, which I added on day 18 in the evening. I did a water change, too, when I added the plants. -Yesterday, Day 19 of cycling, at noon the ammonia was 0, nitrite 0.25, and nitrate 10. That was done during a lunch break, so I was not able to do anything to the water (e.g. water change). By 4PM, the ammonia was 0, nitrite 0(!), and nitrate 5. I think the Water Wisteria is probably sucking those up. I'm going to check the parameters today, again. Also, my pH dropped to 6.4, so I did another water change last night, but less-- only 4 gallons. Also: I called Tetra because I was not convinced that the Safe Start had done much to speed things up for me. I was told that I had not used the product quite right. According to them, after the treated water has been running in the tank at least 24hrs, you're supposed to add fish to start ammonia going in the tank, then put Safe Start then next day. According to them, if you put Safe Start in and have no fish within 24hrs, then the bacteria begins to die off. I was mistaken in thinking that the dying plant material would furnish the ammonia that the bacteria needed (I know Carl already had corrected me on that one). Another thing they clarified (not so clear on the bottle) is that they expect the tank to be cycled within one or two WEEKS of adding the Safe Start. The bottle gives the impression that the cycling will be accomplished within a day or two. Anyway, I would imagine that you can just add pure ammonia instead of putting fish-- live and learn. Well, anyway, the fish are in and they seem fine at this point. Just putting this out there in case anyone is looking. Nicole
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Post by aquaglory on Sept 4, 2010 16:16:07 GMT -5
Update as of this AM, day 21 of cycling: parameters are as follows: ammonia 0.25, nitrite 0.5, nitrate 5. Guess I'm not cycled, yet!
Nicole
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Post by bikeguy33 on Sept 4, 2010 23:31:23 GMT -5
just to add to this very interesting post. this won`t help you aqua.....but i have been lucky adding media from trusted friends and trusted fish store aquariums. people seem very happy to give there garbage to you. one`s garbage is another`s treasure. also....i wouldn`t listen or purchase tetra products. i have had no luck and they seem to have a product for every problem. IMO they sell snake oil. btw, welcome to EA and sorry it took me so long to jump in
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Post by aquaglory on Sept 5, 2010 1:45:13 GMT -5
Hi bikeguy.
Thanks for the welcome and the advice. BTW, I forgot to mention that I brought the pH back up to about 7.2 with that last water change that I had done (a little higher than I was aiming for, but the cardinals don't seem to mind). After those last parameter readings, I did not do a water change, but just added Amquel plus to neutralize the ammonia and nitrites.
I'm getting conflicting info regarding whether I should do a water change or not... so I did the above...
Nicole
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 5, 2010 9:20:10 GMT -5
I have kept fish 7 years and cycled countless tanks, often with no problems. The first time I had a tank and it was cycling, I made the mistake of doing whatever the pet store told me (3/4 of it seemed to be bad advice.) I also did water changes whenever there was an ammonia or nitrite reading even if it was small. Four months passed and I was still not cycled and many fish had died.
Moral of the story, sometimes it is best to leave the tank alone for a bit while it is cycling. Like if the nitrite is .75 or under and the ammonia .3 or under, carefully monitor the numbers to make sure they don't get higher and let the tank take care of itself. However, if the numbers increase, I would definitely do a water change. As well, if they keep going up after water changes, I would look to see what is causing it to keep going up much as waste build-up in the tank, too many fish, dying plants or dead fish, etc.
Bill is right that most products sold by petstores don't really help cycling that much. However, I have had success with Prime. It breaks down ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in a way that it is no longer harmful to the fish yet that beneficial bacteria can still consume it. Prime is not a substitute of course for regular water changes and tank maintence.
Hope that helps.
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Post by Carl on Sept 5, 2010 13:16:49 GMT -5
just to add to this very interesting post. this won`t help you aqua.....but i have been lucky adding media from trusted friends and trusted fish store aquariums. people seem very happy to give there garbage to you. one`s garbage is another`s treasure. also....i wouldn`t listen or purchase tetra products. i have had no luck and they seem to have a product for every problem. IMO they sell snake oil. btw, welcome to EA and sorry it took me so long to jump in I could not agree with this point more. My experience with Tetra Products (including food) is not that good. Bill's (bikeguy') note about Tetra selling "snake oil" echos what a trade rep. (from Sera, another German Company) at a trade show many years back told me how most German's view Tetra and how he is amazed as to how Tetra has respect here in North America, yet is not viewed this way back in Germany. Tetras claim (from their website) "Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira, and Nitrospira; Shelf-stable formula requires no refrigeration for added convenience" flies in the face of science that shows true Autorophic Bacteria cannot be stored ina sealed environment without oxygen at room temperature. Most likely these are Heterotrophic bacteria which are still helpful, but not the bacteria necessary for a long term healthy nitrogen cycle. I also cannot emphasize more bikeguy's point as to the use of seasoned filter media from another aquarium. This method is proven and is what the majority of aquarium maintenance professionals use, with cycling products then used as an aid or when bio loads spike for what ever reason Also see: Aquarium Nitrogen CycleCarl
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Post by aquaglory on Sept 6, 2010 20:00:32 GMT -5
Thanks for your advice, everyone.
As of this late morning, my readings were as follows: Ammonia 0.25, nitrite 0.5, and nitrate between 5 and 10. The pH, though, is at 6, maybe below. I'm concerned about that pH. Should I add bicarb or do a water change?
I think the pH went down because of the new plants that I placed in the tank. The water wisteria is doing great, but the Teleranthera reinikii was rather bruised and a bunch of leaves and a couple of stems were "melting". I removed as much of the dead/dying plant material this morning, but was not able to do a water change, yet. I know that the cycling gets slowed/halted with a pH that low, so I'm thinking of adding some bicarb if a water change is not a good idea.
The cardinals seem to be doing fine, so far (I just have the 3 and they are slightly smaller than an inch). I feed them once a day, about 1cm x 1cm flake, crushed to bite size. I have noticed a rise, again, in detritus worms.
BTW, goldenpuon, thanks for your advice. Its interesting that you make note of all the tanks that you've cycled. I have, too, but for some reason never had so much trouble as with this tank! Go figure. Maybe it's because I was trying to do it the "right way", for a change! lol.
Nicole
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Post by Carl on Sept 7, 2010 9:53:15 GMT -5
The low pH has the positive affect of rendering the ammonia you are testing as non-toxic ammonium (only the SeaChem Ammonia Alert can test this difference). As well, the fish you are keeping prefer more soft/acid environments. That said, this low of a pH can indicate too much organic decomposition, as well a poor Redox can also result. I do NOT recommend "chasing" pH, rather maintaining at least some buffers (KH) to keep a more stable pH. This is a more complex subject, I suggest reading this article for a full understanding: Aquarium Chemistry; pH, KH, GHAlso see: A Healthy Aquarium; Disease PreventionCarl
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