Something Wrong with Tetra

[goldenpuon]

First, to recap what has been going on lately in my black phantom tetra tank, I removed 3 males who were excessively chasing the 4 females and 1 weaker male in there over territory.

They were chasing months before I did anything due to the fact that I knew some aggression was normal for these fish. I figured since they were doing ok, that I should just let them be, but after observing them one day, I decided enough is enough.

It has been about 1 1/2 weeks since they were separated as of today.

The aquarium is 10 gallons. The tank is clean and the only problem with my water at the moment is my PH is 7.8 (probably related top too high a GH and KH).

My concern, now that I have said this background information, is that my weaker male black phantom still in with the females is acting sick.

He is paler than he should be, is breathing somewhat heavily and is not eating. He seems thinner and a bit scrawnier than my other males but that may just be because he isn't the hardiest fish or because he has been subject to chasing for so long.

Earlier in the week, I noticed him spitting out food. I put a towel over the fish to help keep the area dark which works to destress fish in my personal experience.

Today, I noticed he was still not better and shined my T2 light on him while he was in the tank to get a better look.

Aside from the symptoms already described, he seems to have a mark, (I couldn't tell properly what it is) on his side pretty close to his gill cover and fins we strokes a lot (forgot their name. ) Also, on the other side of him, I noticed an area that was reddish, perhaps a wound. It is behind the black spot all black phantoms have located behind their gill covers. The mark and possible wound are both fairly small.

I can't get pictures. the fish is too small and skittish for me to get a close enough picture to show his visible symptoms.

The four female black phantoms appear to be fine but I have not checked them over thoroughly.

My questions now is what is wrong with the weak black phantom male and what medication should I give him to alleviate his symptoms?

Note: I do not have Methyline Blue available due to my mom not allowing it in my household. I do however, have access to wonder shells that cured my aging betta of pathogens.

[Carl]

If at all possible I would separate him to a hospital tank and treat him with both Kanamycin (Kanaplex) and Nitrofurazone (Furan 2), since it seems he is the only sick fish. However I realize this may not be possible, and in this case a weaker combination treatment of Melafix and Pimafix could be used in this community tank.

The Medicated Wonder Shells may help as well, but his afflictions would likely be better addressed by the other medication combinations.

As you noted too, he is a likely a very weak fish, so he may not respond well to any treatment.

How does his poop look, is it stringy and white? This could indicate a parasite in which case forget the Melafix/Pimafix and consider adding Metronidazole with Furan 2

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for the quick response Carl.

I have not noticed any stringy waste. (He is not eating so I don't imagine he's producing much.)
However, whenever I clean the tank, all of the waste in there is brown.

Also, he is a bit thin but not deathly or super thin.

Unfortunately, I do not have a spare tank for him.

But like you mentioned, the other fish do not seem sick that are in with him. All of them are going crazy when I give them food so I take it that they are healthy since I have not examined them as closely as the male. I also hope the three aggressive didn't catch anything from the weak male. They seem fine and were doing well before the move. However, their tank in on the floor in a corner so it is hard to observe them.

The weak male seems to be doing about the same today. But when I just fed them, I couldn't help but wonder if he was blind? The food went right past his mouth and the other fish were going nuts. He didn't make a move toward or away from the food. He just kept swimming in place in the corner of the tank like nothing was happening.

I have a blind goldfish Oranda who also exhibited symptoms where it didn't notice anything when it first went blind.

Since the fish's condition is not deteriorating fast, I think I should observe for a day or two more before I treat him. Just to get a better idea of what is going on.

But I will treat with Furan 2 and Kanaplex if nothing has changed. If any new symptoms come up or I am able to identify the mark and wound(?) on his side better, I will get you know and I will follow up on treatment based on what you tell me from there.

I would normally treat sooner but seeing as whatever it is is not progressing fast and no other fish are sick, I think its better to wait a bit instead of making a somewhat educated guess and throwing medication in.

Renee

[goldenpuon]

Sorry for the double post.

I looked at him again closely with my T2 light. What I am seeing is definitely a pretty large wound. And the mark seems to be a wound as well. He appears to have one large wound and a couple smaller ones. Luckily, they do not look infected.

Also, because black phantom tetras are somewhat see-through (especially when this one pales out when I look at him), I can see what appears to be an area filled with blood inside of him. (Unless that is the wound from the other side.) But the area looks a darkish red and I am PRETTY sure this is from inside the fish itself.

I have no real idea of what caused these injuries, especially if they are internal as well.

He isn't paling out quite as much as yesterday unless I look at him closely which makes him nervous.

It seems to make more sense now. With an injury such as this, what fish would not be breathing heavily and completely ignoring food?

After looking at him, I am almost positive he is not going blind. The pretty severe injuries would be what is causing him to ignore the food, not lack of sight.

[Carl]

It seems to make more sense now. With an injury such as this, what fish would not be breathing heavily and completely ignoring food?

Yes, I agree.

If you are up to it, catching this Tetra and adding a quick swab of Hydrogen Peroxide (about a 50/50 water dilution) might help with this wound. Although Methylene Blue would be my first choice, this is a product that does not stain and is available in most homes

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Carl.

I really feel like it would not be a good idea to catch the fish. I have stressed bettas and caused them to go downhill even further when capturing them to give baths. This is an even smaller and more fragile fish.

I could try putting the hydrogen peroxide in the water but I know it cuts down available oxygen in the water, which I know my tetra doesn't need at this point.

Would medicated wondershells work? I know they have some Methyline Blue and I am still allowed to use them until I run out (thanks to my mom who wants me to stop using them too because of staining.) Medicated wondershells have saved my fish on several occasions now.

Or would Melafix or Pimafix be a better idea?

I know the key here is to allow my fish to heal, meanwhile, keeping the wounds from becoming infected.

Should I try to medicate the fish all the time until it is healed?

I know it is going to be a while, especially if the internal bleeding is severe.

I really hope this fish will make it and am sorry about not taking all your suggestions treating the fish. I am limited here and I am probably as frustrated as you are on trying to help me when I lack resources due to my mom's rules. But I will do the best I can.

Renee

[Carl]

Do not use Hydrogen Peroxide in the tank, as you noted this would likely cut down on available oxygen.

I would recommend the Melafix/Pimafix over the Medicated Wonder Shells as this combination would do more for the sores than the Medicated Wonder Shells.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I will use the Melafix/Pimafix combo then.

I actually asked this in my last post. (It sort of got mixed in with my explanation. Sorry.)

But the question was, should medicate the fish for the entire time it is healing? Also, how long should I wait after completing one treatment period with the Pimafix/Melafix combo before starting another? I am assuming I am treating to help the fish heal faster and prevent infection, nothing else.

The fish has some pretty nasty wounds so it will take a considerable amount of time for it to completely recover. I don't want to over-medicate the fish during its healing time and hurt it further.

I will try to make my questions and most important information in "bold" from now on. I know it is they are easy to miss with my tendency to put in a lot of detail, not to mention I know you have to try to whizz through your emails as fast as possible due to time restraints.

Once again, I appreciate your help. You have been a great help to me when it comes to caring for my fish.

Renee

[Carl]

Assuming you have performed a treatment period of one week (with small water changes between each treatment for best results), I would likely perform a larger change and then wait 5 days before another treatment regimen of this combination.

However[/b] if this treatment combination (or any for that matter) was not successful or only slightly successful it is best to consider another treatment regimen/combination such as the stronger Furan2/Kanaplex or simply to move this fish to another tank (as constant medications in an otherwise healthy tank often causes more harm than good)

Also see my Aquarium Medications Article (Page One) under the section "Change Medications when ineffective"

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thank you Carl. I treated the tank with the Melafix/Pimafix combo today and read over your article about medication ineffectiveness.

But there appears to be something strange going on. I looked at the fish before I treated it and it's wounds looked bigger! Could it be that the females are picking on it,some kind of disease increasing the size, or something else?

I find this quite strange...

[Carl]

It could be that he is being picked on, often fish can be merciless and go after weak fish with injuries making an injury worse yet.

However it could also be a very virulent infection, in which case Pimafix/Melafix is likely to not be strong enough.

This would require the Furan 2/Kanaplex combination along WITH a swabbing with Hydrogen Peroxide or better Methylene Blue or Potassium Permanganate for maximum effectiveness

Carl

[goldenpuon]

"However it could also be a very virulent infection, in which case Pimafix/Melafix is likely to not be strong enough."

I already added the Melafix and Pimafix. Does that mean I should discontinue it and switch to Furan 2 and Kanaplex?

Right now I am strongly considering removing him from the tank altogether and isolating him. He appears weak and has his head pointed toward the surface. He seems to be having problems with buoyancy where he's floating downwards.

EDIT: I moved him to a 1 gallon tupaware container with aeration (probably way too much although I tried to taper it down a bit), a plant, and water from his old tank which has Melafix and Pimafix in it.


He doesn't need a heater because even with AC, my house's temperature has been 75-79 F on average.

Sorry for so many questions, but should I get rid of the Melafix and Pimafix in the main tank? I originally treated the whole tank but the females in there don't seem to have any of sick tetra's symptoms.

[Carl]

Isolating him is what I suggested as the best option earlier, so I am glad you were able to do this.

I would not worry about the Pimafix/Melafix in the other tank, it will work as a preventative for the other fish.

Treating this isolation tank with the Furan 2 and Kanaplex (along with swabbing the sore if possible) is your best option, although from your description of this guy, there is no "good" option, so it is more of a matter of doing the best you can.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Carl. I will leave the Melafix/Pimafix in there for a few days before I put the carbon back in to absorb it.

I think I need to switch to Furan 2/ Kanaplex if the fish isn't doing better in a day. He is getting worse and trying to gulp air from the surface despite a LOT of aeration. I will likely lose the fish. He is not doing well.

I also noticed something on his head that looked something like the beginning of columnaris or Saprolegnia growing on his head. I'll have to look up if those two disease are gram positive or negative as I know Melafix/Pimafix only heal a certain kind (forgot whether it is gram positive or negative.)

[Carl]

I also noticed something on his head that looked something like the beginning of columnaris or Saprolegnia growing on his head. I'll have to look up if those two disease are gram positive or negative as I know Melafix/Pimafix only heal a certain kind (forgot whether it is gram positive or negative.)

Both Columnaris and Saprolegnia are opportunistic, so the presence of either of these pathogens presence is unfortunately not a surprise.

Columnaris is gram negative. While Pimafix is a mild gram negative anti-microbial,; Melafix is for gram positive

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Carl. I looked up the medications Pimafix, Melafix, Furan 2, and Kanaplex to see if they were gram positive or negative treatments. Also, Saprolegnia and Columnaris to see if they were gram positive or negative pathogens in your articles.
Fortunately, I got my answer there.

Luckily, today the male does not have the growth on his head today that looked like it could be the beginning of either of one of those two diseases above.

The fish however, seems terrified on me and is trying to hide from me. Its very scared after the move and the fact that I have to shine a bright T2 light once a day on it to check its wounds is scaring it.

I feel like I am stressing it more. Is there anything I can do for this?

Also, it is having SEVERE buoyancy problems which is forcing it downward. It keeps on trying to take air from the top to stabilize its swim-bladder- much like my goldfish Puon does when it has this problem on occasion.

Do you have any idea what could be the cause of this sudden problem? Also, is there any way I can help fix it? Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks for all the help you've given me btw.

[Carl]

Basically he simply seems to be a very weak fish, and these opportunistic infections are getting the better of him

As I noted earlier:

there is no "good" option, so it is more of a matter of doing the best you can.

Hiding is very common for a weak fish (or most any animal), as this is a survival instinct.

The buoyancy issue is also a result of his body being ravaged by disease.

There is not much more I can offer you advice wise, as there is not much you can do. Make sure to keep the water as clean as possible (between treatments, change water), as well keeping extra mineral cations present will help with Redox Balance (which helps with immunity)

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I feel really bad for this fish The more I try to look at him to keep an eye on him, the more he panics and hides.

As well, the females are avoiding me and trying to stay near the bottom of the tank near the plants where they feel safe due to me checking on them. They aren't sick to my knowledge but are skittish with all the things happening in their tank lately.

I have been doing roughly 10% water changes every time before I give him his daily dose of Melafix and Pimafix. Also, I removed uneaten food today with a net from the 1 gallon he is in (which unfortunately scared him a lot.)

I guess I'll just have to keep on going with treatment and try to leave him alone as much as possible.

Thanks for the help Carl. I wish I could do more for him but I guess I just have to let nature take its course on this.

[goldenpuon]

Today the tetra seems the same but is still not eating. I can tell he's missing being with the other tetras.

I'm not seeing anymore signs of Columnaris or Saprolegnia which is a relief. I don't see any major changes. He still has the buoyancy problem and still not eating.

I put Spirulina 20 in there for him to eat and after about 4 hours I removed it because he hadn't even touched it. I just hope he won't starve himself before he gets a chance to heal. But if needed, I can hatch some brine shrimp for him and see if he eats that.

I thought I saw that one of his sides was a bit bigger than the other from the top view. (This would indicate swelling or another problem.) However, he looks fine from the side and it is not a huge difference so it may be nothing.

I am relieved to see he does not appear to be dying as I thought at some moments before.

I'm going to just keep waiting, changing his water, and treating him. Also, I'm planning hatching brine shrimp tomorrow. If I can get them to grow big enough and not die, I bet he may go for them.

So that's an update on how he's doing. I looked in the forum rules and didn't see any rule against double posting to update on how a fish is doing. If not, I can always edit my original post to include the update on the fish.

Renee

[Carl]

So that's an update on how he's doing. I looked in the forum rules and didn't see any rule against double posting to update on how a fish is doing. If not, I can always edit my original post to include the update on the fish.

Keeping us informed, even for those only reading (not replying) is what a family forum is all about IMHO

Keep in mind (which is why I often answer as if to an audience, not just to the person asking the question) that this forums has far more readers than posters as per forum stats, so keeping your posts up to date helps those who read the forum but never post.
I know that I read many forums (mostly non aquatic such as SEO or Tech forums) that I am not even a member of, I just read threads and find questions similar to my own and read other's advice/opinions.

Anyway, I do not have anymore to add from reading this update that I believe you do not already know or are doing.

Carl