2nd case of dropsy and a bleeding belly

[stix0504]

Tank Size: 46 and 55
Age of the tank:
pH:
Ammonia:
NitrAtes:
nitrites:
GH/KH:
Temperature:
Fish:

46 gallon - Oranda
55 gallon - Fantail Goldfish

Symptoms:

I am at my wits end. I am begining to think I have something hideous in my tanks that just will not go away. My 55 gallon tank has my oldest Goldfish, Dash, who has developed a massively bleeding belly. He actually has done this before but I treat it and it goes away. However, this time it's different. Got up this morning and he is FULL of blood under his scales on his belly going down into his bottom fins. Eating fine, swimming fine, but looks horrible.

Then I go to my tank of Orandas....here's my beautiful Oranda Buttercup, swimming upside down. I lean in for a closer look and her belly is pineconed out just like the last fish I just lost (which by the way was in a separate tank). Other two Oranda's are just peachy. No signs of anything wrong.

I thoroughly inspect my fish every single day. Buttercup had no signs of anything going on with her yesterday. And to have the same type of bloating as my Ryukin had that I lost strikes me as more than coincidence.

To be honest, most of my problems began *I think* back when I lost a whole tank of Orandas and other goldfish to what I thought was Velvet. Who knows though if that is what is was because I did treat for it and a multitude of other things and nothing worked. They all died but Dash - most from dropsy - some from what appeared to be internal bleeding and swelling in their stomachs and faces (weird, but true). But since then, I have been fighting one problem after another even after thoroughly tearing down ALL of my tanks and getting new EVERYTHING.

I have begun treatment on these two fish already. I know what to do - I have been through this enough and with you guys helping me out in the past. MB Bath, salt, kanacyn...I guess I am just wondering what everyone's take on this situation is. I have pictures of the incident that happened with my tank I lost and can share them if you guys think it would help figure out what may be going on now.

I just can't understand it. I take care of these fish, I mean really, really strive to take proper care of them. Never neglect water changes, high quality food, UV lights, great filters, etc. etc. I feel like such a stinking failure with my fish I feel like just throwing in the towel.

Sorry for making a 'book' out of this post but I am soooo frustrated I just needed to get it all out and get some other opinions.

[stix0504]

After raising my salt in the tanks Dash is much better this morning with about 75% of the blood cleared up and Buttercup has flipped back over and is swimming normally with just a tad of raised scales in her belly. I am cautious to speak to optimistically this morning about her but things look good so far.

[goldenpuon]

I am so sorry to hear about this Stix. If it makes you feel any better, my fish keep getting things too, not my goldfish but my bettas and guppies due to aging. And I take care of them well. If you have weak fish or from a poor quality source that may be why they keep falling ill. I am very sorry this has happened again.

Did you get your fish from a single store? I'm not sure but if you bought them from one source it might be the cause. It is just a guess based on what I read from somewhere else on EA. I know you're giving them the right treatment so I'm afraid that's all the advice I have. Best of luck. I hope this is the last of your problems.

Renee

[bikeguy33]

coming up with an initial cause may be a lil easier than figuring why it wont go away. you have done full tear downs with no positive results. are there any new tank mates coming in close to outbreak times?what is your water temp? any info you can....add as many details as possible...no matter how minor they may seem. the unexpected is often the cause...

[fishfever]

I wouldn't beat myself up over this. It sounds like you are doing everything possible you can to maintain your fish and tanks although I would certainly continue the detective work to see if you can identify a root cause common to all your tanks. As far as having something hideous in your tanks, I'm sure we all have "bad" things in our tanks despite our best efforts (the same is true for humans - we are constantly surrounded by germs, viruses and other nasties but if we take good care of ourselves and our environment hopefully we won't get sick as often).

If we are doing the right things as you mention such as regular water changes, good filtering, feeding high-quality food, etc. then hopefully the fish have built up some immunity to whatever "bad" stuff that's in there. So what's left is the susceptibility of the fish themselves (genetics, stock quality, etc) or just plain bad luck which is beyond your control.

Have you done a thorough analysis of your tap water and/or looked at a report from your water company? It's probably a long shot, but the more things you can eliminate the easier the detective work will be. Also have you considered some sort of medicated food to treat your fish since it sounds like they may have some internal disorder?

[stix0504]

Thanks everyone. The fish have been obtained by 3 sources. One has been really great but requires overnight shipping. The fish from there are always healthy but I hate to ship the fish. In fact, all my Orandas have come from this one in particular. The second place is a local pet store that I bought 2 larger goldfish at (Dash included). This place has horrendous water quality but I ordered the fish from them and took them upon arrival to avoid being 'in' their tanks (but who knows where their source was from). Haven't ordered from them since. And the third was from Petsmart where I obtained the pleco that wreaked havoc on my Oranda tanks. Would never, ever, ever get any animal or fish from them again either.

I actually just found a vet locally who I just consulted with about the fish. She feels that it is quite possible that my fish have vitamin deficiency which actually makes a lot of sense to me. So she has recommended a regimen of krill with Ester C, vitamins and peas for a week. So I am off to order this and see if it helps the situation. She also recommended keeping my tanks at .3% salt for the week of treatment (which they have been at for a few days now with really good results so far).

I am hopeful once again. She advised that I may not be able to save the fish who have problems because of the damage that might already be done. However, one never knows.

Going to go see about ordering all the items because finding it around here in this small town would be a miracle.

[stix0504]

Also, I forgot to mention, I am requesting a report from the water company too. I have used the medicated food from Jungle labs as well. The result was the skin blackening (melanophore migration episode) so definitely it helped a lot I would say.

And tank temp is currently at 80 in all tanks. I was worried about that but the vet said it was fine for goldfish.

[bikeguy33]

actually 80 degrees is very warm for goldish. goldfish are cold water fish that do better in cooler water. the temperature could be the culprit here actually. in warm water like this, many bacteria and parasites will thrive. my suggestion is too slowly cool the water down at least 7 or 8 degrees.

[stix0504]

Too warm? Oh no! My problem is that I live in Florida and out of the tap is 84. So I usually bag ice and float it to make sure it doesn't go above 80. How would you recommend getting it down that much lower and keeping it there consistently? My home is set at 79 and my electric bill is about $450 so lowering it there won't work.

I have thought about chillers but they are so expensive. I have read Carl's articles which sound good but my thought is consistency. How to do it and keep it there. What do you think?

[bikeguy33]

well the best you can do now is either move the tank to a cooler place or completely remove any heater. also...keeping lights off in the tank through the heavy sun part of the day may help a lil....

[fishfever]

Hmm, cooling is alot more complicated and expensive than heating especially when your ambient (room) temperature is higher than your target tank temp. If both your tanks are in the same room and it has a window, a small room air conditioner could keep the ambient down enough without driving your electric bill up too much... Another idea (and it's just that) is some sort of Peltier cooler which uses electricity and no moving parts to create a cold junction that is submersible into a tank. They've used Peltier devices to cool computer processors for many years and more recently for drink and wine coolers so it's proven reliable technology. I did a quick search for "Peltier" and "aquarium" and I do come up with at least one:

www.marinedepot.com/chillers_coolworks_iceprobe-ap.html

This one is suitable for a small aquarium and you probably would need at least two for a larger tank to get a reasonable temperature drop. And you would want one controller per tank (it's what cuts the cooler on and off to maintain a stable temp, otherwise it would run constantly plus cool too much at night not to mention wasting electricity). The white part would submerge into your tank from the top (it's shown inverted) while the fan is used to remove heat buildup in the heat sink (the metal plate with fins above the fan). Anyway by the time you throw in the number of coolers you need plus the two temperature controllers we're talking several hundred dollars which is probably starting to approach the cost of a standard chiller (haven't priced one so don't really know). There may be some cheaper ones out there; after all the actual Peltier devices they are based on aren't all that expensive but by the time you throw all the other stuff in that you need plus manufacturing costs it adds up..

I was in Orlando in July (I think) a few years ago and it was like 105 each day (plus very humid on top of that). But when we came in the winter more recently it was very comfortable so whatever you come up with may only be needed a few months out of the year?

[stix0504]

I don't have a heater installed and moving it around the house won't help as they (the three tanks) are currently spread throughout the house with the same temps. It usually only stays this high during July and August (sometimes late June too). The lights are a thought although I only currently run them until 4:00 pm as it is. Maybe leaving them off during from like noon until late afternoon and back on during the evening might help though.

Because of the heat here, I have those sun blocking thermal curtains on all our windows which remain closed throughout the day. It's always such a scorcher this time of year.

The Peltier devices are quite cool. I need to read up more on it as I just glanced at it briefly since I just got home but will definitely check it out later. From what I did read it looks to be a tad bit cheaper than the coolers. Thanks so much for the link.

[fishfever]

One other idea which may be worth trying is to take a small fan, angled slightly to force evaporation off the top. It would of course cause you to replace water more often and raise the humidity in your house some (might be a better idea for some place like Arizona or other hot dry area). But it would be a cheap experiment to try. You could run the fan off a cheap Christmas light timer during the hot hours. I'd also consider running the lights off a different timer and shutting them down during the hot hours; even if you only get a half degree drop every little bit helps. The cheapo timers we have are mechanically segmented so you can have multiple on/off periods, if desired.

If your third tank (didn't know about that one) has only tropicals then they ought to be able to take the higher temps without a problem.

If you decide to pursue the Peltier coolers shop around and contact the manufacturer. They may have a larger size more suitable for larger tanks. I'm sure you'll need at least 2 of the small ones for each of your larger tanks. You can probably get away with no controller by running the Peltier coolers on a cheapo Christmas light timer during the hot hours only and unplugging or turning off the timer with unexpected cool weather. The temperature won't be quite as stable as with the controller but since these coolers aren't really big enough to overcool your tanks (overshooting) running them continuously during hot hours shouldn't be a problem. If you get to the point of ordering, I'd verify the return policy with the store in case you aren't satisfied with the performance. And try one tank first as a trial. I wouldn't order the controller even if you plan to get one later since you can easily evaluate it without a controller first.

[kagome]

Um, are we absolutely sure that cooling is even necessary? I know this is anecdotal but in my part of Florida many, many people have goldfish in outdoor ponds. This time of year the ambient air temperature is over 100 degrees during the day and some of these ponds are even out in the full sun. Some of them do have surface agitation and like small waterfalls but even with that I don't really see that is could lower the temp below 80. My neighbor has a pond that does stay shaded but they have no kind of surface agitation at all and they have had the same comets and orandas for years. Like I said, I know that this is anecdotal but I think this issue deserves further investigation before someone invests in a bunch of extra equipment.

[stix0504]

Currently, I have three tanks all containing goldfish. All the tanks maintain the same temperature. I have ceiling fans above each of the tanks that I run on high most of the day and it certainly does require me to replace the water more frequently. But it helps with the temp a bit.

I have always considered getting a chiller but the cost has left it at just that, a consideration.

Personally, I lean more on the side of kagomes point of view that it is ok since the vet stated so. However, with that being said, I still would love to get something down the road to keep me from having to float the ice during the hotter months. And the Peltier coolers have peaked my interest!

Back to the fish - I just started the regimen the vet told me to do today. Buttercup has not pineconed out again, Dash has not had the return of the bleeding belly and they have been off any meds. So I am using salt, Ester C and krill once a day for a week, Vitamin supplements in the tank and peas once a week. We will see.....

[fishfever]

I don't know very much about goldfish since I don't have any. I do recall from memory that they prefer lower temperatures than tropicals, but it could be they adapt to higher temps just like a low pH preferring fish like a tetra can adapt to more basic water and catfish to a tank with salt. It would be interesting and possibly helpful to chart the water temp in your tanks over a day (every hour or so would be fine) to see how stable it is and how high the peak gets. If you have lots of aeration I think it can help compensate a little for high temps by having more dissolved oxygen that would be available at cooler temps...

BTW if this were me, and I had concluded that I needed to cool 3 tanks all in separate places in the house I would personally be looking at a DIY Peltier solution to save $$$ (I'm not suggesting that you do this!). 3 standard chillers I'm sure will probably run well over $1k. And the commercial Peltier one that I posted seems a bit high for a small unit which is probably good for maybe a 10-20g tank unless you use more than 1 per tank. You can get the basic Peltier device double that wattage on Ebay for about $10 shipped. It's just a plate with a cold and hot side with 2 wires that you connect to a low-voltage high-current switching power supply (not that expensive but probably the most expensive item). The cold side must be thermally extended via some sort of probe into the tank and the hot side is thermally joined to a heat sink (usually aluminum plate with fins). A small fan (a few $) cools the heat sink and the power supply/fan is plugged into your cheapo Christmas light timer programmed to run during the hot hours. So I imagine for less than $50 each in parts you could make one with double the cooling the capacity of the commercial one. But it would be a good bit of work and you would have to be real handy with power tools (or know someone who is).

[stix0504]

The temps vary about 1 degree only from morning temp to late afternoon temp. I keep an eye on it quite a bit, especially during the summer months (and the fact that my youngest kid thinks it's quite funny to kick the thermostat to heat - sigh...) I do have a ton of aeration in all three tanks via bubblers that run the entire length of the back of each tank.

My husband is quite handy (electrician/maintenance by trade) so I think that he could probably figure it all out if I purchased everything. I just need to get it together and start researching it all Thank you so much for your idea!

[bikeguy33]

i still say temp is the problem. as far as the healthy pond goes....it is in shade most of the time. as well....a fish is far less stressed in a pond than a tank. a goldfish requires 10 or so degrees colder than 80, depending on the species. this warmer water, altho the fish may appear to adapt, is tough on them. there will be stress and in turn a lowered ammunity. in the warmer water , the bacteria and parasites will thrive.in a pond there are factors such as water being replenished through rain fall etc. this case where fish are bought at different times with different tanks started new tells me there is something going on. temp is the only deduction i can come up with....

[bikeguy33]

as well.... what time of year do these symptoms start?

[stix0504]

Here are the details. It gets quite confusing so I will try my best to make everything as clear as I can.

When I lost the tank of fish (my 55 gallon with the large Orandas and Dash) what I did was I bought a new tank (46 gallon), new gravel, new filter, new decorations, UV, new everything and set it all up. Transferred my tank of other smaller Orandas who were currently in a 30 gallon tank to that tank and transferred Dash to their old 30 gallon tank (it’s really 28 gallon but for some reason I keep referring to it as a 30 gallon).

My thought was to keep the smaller Orandas healthy and move them to the new tank that way if Dash was still sick, I would not contaminate the Orandas.

I took Dash’s tank (55 gallon) and threw everything away BUT the tank. Disinfected the tank with bleach (bleach, rinse, rinse, sun dry). Set up the 55 gallon with new everything and moved Dash back to the 55 gallon tank. Then I did the same procedure with the 30 gallon as I did with the 55 gallon in regards to replacing EVERYTHING and disinfecting.

I probably didn’t need to do all tanks but I use the same water siphon for water changes between the tanks and my thought was that even though it would cost me major bucks to do all of this, it was worth it rather than to risk all the remaining fish becoming infected (some had begun to do some bottom sitting at this point). I just couldn’t stand the thought of going through what I went though losing all the fish in such a horrible way again.

It was a huge pain because I had to do daily water changes, sometimes more than that depending on the readings to keep everyone ok. This went on every day for about 6 weeks. Wouldn’t recommend anyone doing that! It’s a ton of work.

After that, I decided to give Dash a tank companion again because he had been alone for some time and didn't look happy. I got a black moor to put in with him. Within about two weeks, it died – no outward signs of anything.

Then I bought two baby orandas (same LFS as black moor but different tank) and put them in the 30 gallon. Same thing, about two weeks they died. They did show symptoms of heavy breathing, really heavy breathing before they died.

Bought another fantail (named appropriately Hope and from same store) for Dash's tank. Hope is still living. Bought another black moor for Dash's tank (still living too and also from same local store).

Then I purchased 2 Ryukins for the 30 gallon (different LFS). They almost immediately started to get fin rot which I treated.

Shortly after that, I lost two of my 5 Oranda's. The first was a smaller Oranda who always had a swim bladder issue (Cheeto)and I didn’t think much about a problem because it seems that usually when they get swim bladder they do eventually die. The second Oranda I lost was when I first started posting on this message board (Peanut). At this point, all three tanks had started to have weird symptoms of a white hazy type look across their backs and most were bottom sitting. Treated with 10 days of furan 2/ kanamycin, antibiotic food and salt. They seemed better.

I just recently lost one of the Ryukins with dropsy. The other one seems ok but lonely at this point and mainly stares at the back of the tank. Although, I must say in the last two days he has started to interact with me again so I am thinking he is ok and maybe just lonely. I have been waiting to end this treatment and get the salt back down before adding another fish as a companion.

The two fish that I posted about originally in this thread, Dash and Buttercup, are doing quite well at this moment. Absolutely no blood in Dash's belly (which quite honestly is shocking to me because I have been dealing with him having it off and on for some time) and Buttercup is no longer showing any pineconing AT ALL! The only thing different is that I increased salt and started the vitamins,krill and ester c.

The only issue I am currently having is that I still see some very faint blood streaking on the tips of Buttercups fins. Very faint, but it is there and not quite as bad as it was 2 days ago. I don’t know if this is stress, bacterial, or vitamin deficiency but will do nothing for it until it either gets worse or it is still there when this treatment is over.

So as far as what time of year, it really varies. Symptoms are always very similar between the tanks.

The vet I consulted with is a fish vet, not just a regular vet. I had no idea I had one so close to me. Actually, in the next town over from me. I guess this type of vet is becoming more in demand these days.