Switching Tanks to Breed

[goldenpuon]

I decided that this summer I wanted to have some more guppy fry since I have sold all of my others. I wanted to selectively breed them and control the number that got pregnant. So my plan was to isolate some of the females from the males to prevent all my females from getting pregnant. I decided to put a female and male guppy in a container for a little while to breed with a male from a different tank. But instead of breeding they swam around like they wanted anxiously like they wanted to be put back in the tank and didn't breed.

So, selected 5 females from the 10 I have and put them in with 3 of my males for a few days to breed and also observe their breeding behavior. The first day there they seemed pretty scared and a bit stressed (one of the males as well). But the next they were not scared much and begging for food. The males were also all over the females at this point trying to breed. Today I put the females back in their own tank away from the males. I just put the females back in but they do not seem stressed (so far) and the males do not seem to notice the females' absence.

So, all details and rambling aside, has anyone ever tried this to control the breeding of livebearers? If so, do you recommend it and how much stress would you say it places on the fish taken out of their tank and put back in?

Input is appreciated! Thanks!

[murdock6701]

good question Renee! while live bearers seem to be prolific breeders, all attempts must first be made to determine what you are looking for as the end result - simplt putting one male in w. 5 females for instance will guarantee you a large number of fry - the quality of those fry are determined by the quality of the parents - I try to be as selective as possble when it comes to body shape (conformation), color and overall hardiness - my initial attempt is to select the male I want and put him in w/ say, 3 females - I isolate all the fry that come from the females into seperate tanks - as the fry evolve, you can tell within a few weeks which fry are the most consistent in terms of what you are looking for - some of the parents may have inherant characteristics from overbreeding or onrtbreeding which can be misleading - the fry they produce usually can usually tell you that by the number of "mutated", stunted or off-color produced - once that has been determined, I am better able to "control" the next breeding by eliminating the ones I determine to produce "inferior" fish - sheer numbers don't matter unless your lfs doesn't care - I try to breed for quality - I also try not to buy males and females at the same time from the same store - while it is not a failsafe method in ensuring inbreeding between brothers and sisters, it helps reduce the possibility of inbreeding - in some animals, this is what breeders look for - am not so sure about fish as from what I have learned, inbreeding can cause lower immunities to certain diseases - it takes a lot of time and a lot of tanks but the end result is worth the effort - hope this helps.....

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Murdock. That is very helpful. I'll be on the look out more for quality fish when I select fish to breed. I agree about breeding for quality. Do you personally cull the slow growers or the ones that are not up to standard?

With my last bunch of fry, I sold all the ones that grew fast first and was left with about 25 small ones. It took a lot of extra work to take care of them and the extra months I gave them to grow out didn't the some that were tiny for life. I ended up selling them to a store and didn't cull them out of kindness but now I realize that was probably a poor decision on my part since they probably bred with the fish at the store and ended up producing more poor quality stock.

I culled some but not all. I was thinking it was inhumane but with the extra stress it put on me (and halting my breeding operations) and also spreading poor genetics it spread when I told them, now I'm not so sure. That is why I am asking if you cull poor quality fish or not. I know the decision is up to me on whether to cull but I look to you for advice which is valid on what to and not to do since you have more experience than me on this. Sorry to ask this, I just want to do what is right for my animals.

[fishfever]

Coming from another angle (which is controlling them so they don't breed) how do you restrict livebearers so they only breed once and only once so there is only a single pregnancy? Not that I'm wanting mine to breed at all anymore, I'm just curious how they keep sperm what seems like forever? Is it all from one breeding or can they breed again and store more sperm for the next pregnancy when they are already pregnant?

[goldenpuon]

There is really no way to prevent them from having more than one batch once they've gotten pregnant once. Shame on me for doing this but when I get overloaded with babies, I let the adult females eat them. Or they become feeder fish for my bettas which eat them. This is I suppose an alternative to culling with alka selzer like I do for the sick ones. I take out the fry that seem the hardiest and raise those.

Still on culling with alka selzer for the slowest growing or deformed ones, I am not sure if I should do that. I know it is a judgement call but I'd really like to know if anyone here does that with poor quality fry. And I know with letting the adults eat the fry at birth who aren't as good, it's pretty similar. Still, an opinion would be helpful.

[murdock6701]

Jun 8, 2009 19:56:46 GMT -5 fishfever said:

Coming from another angle (which is controlling them so they don't breed) how do you restrict livebearers so they only breed once and only once so there is only a single pregnancy? Not that I'm wanting mine to breed at all anymore, I'm just curious how they keep sperm what seems like forever? Is it all from one breeding or can they breed again and store more sperm for the next pregnancy when they are already pregnant?

up to 3 months I believe w/ mollies being the longest sperm storers I believe

[murdock6701]

Jun 8, 2009 19:27:40 GMT -5 goldenpuon said:

Thanks Murdock. That is very helpful. I'll be on the look out more for quality fish when I select fish to breed. I agree about breeding for quality. Do you personally cull the slow growers or the ones that are not up to standard?

With my last bunch of fry, I sold all the ones that grew fast first and was left with about 25 small ones. It took a lot of extra work to take care of them and the extra months I gave them to grow out didn't the some that were tiny for life. I ended up selling them to a store and didn't cull them out of kindness but now I realize that was probably a poor decision on my part since they probably bred with the fish at the store and ended up producing more poor quality stock.

I culled some but not all. I was thinking it was inhumane but with the extra stress it put on me (and halting my breeding operations) and also spreading poor genetics it spread when I told them, now I'm not so sure. That is why I am asking if you cull poor quality fish or not. I know the decision is up to me on whether to cull but I look to you for advice which is valid on what to and not to do since you have more experience than me on this. Sorry to ask this, I just want to do what is right for my animals.

I give them away - the gal next door is not a very good keeper I'm sorry to say - she has a stressful life w/ her husband gone off to school and a 10 month old baby - I get over there as often as I can and simply replace the fish she loses w/ ones that aren't perfect, do water changes - I've explained and written down all the things to do but it doesn't always work out - her tank is 5 gallons or lass so i doesn't suppoet a large number of fish anyway - it was a cheap kit she got as a gift - a good filter would probably cost more than the whole kit, so I just give her my culls and we're both happy - I think if I bought her a brand new set up, she would still lose fish, so as long as it keeps the baby amused, neither one of us is really losing anything if any of this makes sense.....

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for the input Murdock. That is a good solution for giving away fish that would otherwise be culled. Unfortunately, I haven't found a person that can take a great deal of fish in or many people who want mine for that matter. Hopefully I'll be able to find more people who want my fish. In the mean time, I may have to settle for culling deformed/weak fry though I am against it so I can make room for the healthier ones.

[kagome]

I have to admit that I am a bit pragmatic about this issue. I don't have any problems at all with letting the parents eat unwanted fry or with feeding the low quality fry to other fish. In nature even some of the healthiest and most vigorous would be eaten by predators and even their own parents. Little fish get eaten by bigger fish, that's just the way of it. If you think about it, look at the ingredients list on your fish food. Mine has fish meal, shrimp meal, krill meal, squid meal, etc. You don't think twice about the fish and invertebrates that died to make your fish food; you just don't see those fish being killed so you feel removed from it. So I don't see it as being a big a deal to allow fry to act as live food. As long as you do your best to take care of the ones that you decide to keep and that the ones you feed off to other fish do not endure undue suffering then there is nothing wrong with it.

[Carl]

I totally agree kagome, although it may be sad, this is also how weaker mutations or simply weakly diseased fish (or higher animals) are culled in nature.

One of my clients was the Bahooka Restaurant (which had around 100 large aquariums), where I had several tanks with breeding fish (most of which "just happened"). I culled many of the less desirable, weak, etc. fish to feed the larger fish. This also kept me from the need to bring in too many feeder fish for many of the fish at this location.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for your opinions guys. I was thinking about it and the 1/500 or similar fish have as a chance to reach adulthood. And looking at the guppies I raise, far far more than 1/500 of mine that are born reach adulthood. So I guess it I will allow the fish to be eaten that are weak/don't want though I am controlling the number of females that get pregnant so not so many fry have to become food in order to save space. On the bright side of it, at least it provides the female guppies with a good source of nutriton. Thanks again for your input guys. It was very helpful.