Substrate ???

[chefmg]

Good Day To All !!!
First off I have read , read , and read !!!
And I have gained a great deal of respect for Carl's Facts & opinions!( and all mods for that matter ) So as mentioned in my intro I plan on adding live plants ,& this is a first ... I plan on adding just a few , & ones that prefer low light and are considered " EASY " So Carl recommended Azoo Plant Grower Bed as base & gravel topped >>> Now I really like the look of the
Flourite (original) and was considering paying the extra money & using 100 % as sub. They advertise that you can keep for life of tank !!! But after doing some research . I think this is a false claim ... So to the point ... If I use this product , or I go Carl's road ( Which I probably will lol ) Is there a specific life for the plant substrate ? & if so how long ? Thanx to all in advance !!!

[murdock6701]

I know babygeige is into live plants - you might ask her - my plecos destroy and uproot everything I plant so I gave up on live plants a while ago

[Suzie Q (Lori)]

I have a mixture of Azoo and Eco-Complete in one of my tanks. Azoo is red/orange and the EC is black...nice combo for my Red Cherry Shrimp. In my 55g I have total EC and have the back of the tank spray painted (outside of course) black also...great contrast for the green live plants.

You still have to fert. the plants...I also have MTS (snails) in my tank because the turn the soil over and take the fish poo to the roots of the plants. The only problem with snails is that they reproduce quickly!

Other than that...Carl or babygeige may have more to add...

Lori

[Carl]

If I understand your question, I have found that the minerals can and do get depleted, regardless of brand, type, or method.

What I cannot tell you (other than anecdotal opinions) is what the rate for depletion is.
I think this can vary depending on other supplements added such as Flourish or Flourish Tabs, minerals added, even minerals via water changes and bio load.
IMO, this is an area where experimentation of what works best for YOU comes into play.

Carl

[murdock6701]

while we're on the subject of plants, not to get off topic here, but is banding the base of plants w/ lead like the used to do in the old days bad for the fish? sorry chef, thought it might be helpful to you as well - tying them to rocks is ugly

[Carl]

Apr 6, 2009 13:36:34 GMT -5 murdock6701 said:

while we're on the subject of plants, not to get off topic here, but is banding the base of plants w/ lead like the used to do in the old days bad for the fish? sorry chef, thought it might be helpful to you as well - tying them to rocks is ugly

i have never observed any harm from using lead weights for tying plants, but this is anecdotal as I have not performed or read any research into the use of lead bands (good or bad)

Carl

[chefmg]

Thank You !!! Too all ... No problem MD 701 ,,, That was something I was curious about too ... I have seen them around but probaly wouldnt have used them ( Lead poison ? ) But now I may consider them ... ( Thanx Carl ! ) and just fyi , I had read that the baked clay type substrates wth the minerals etc. Basically turn into mush over time... That was my big concern there ... Think I'll just take your advice from your basic principles page ... Thanx Again to all !!!

[Carl]

I had read that the baked clay type substrates wth the minerals etc. Basically turn into mush over time... That was my big concern there

OK!
I have noted this as well, although I have not used these products in recent years, when I did, I would change them out for this reason as well before the packed down (as they basically would turn into an adobe like substance, then this clay would not allow good aeration of the roots and allow for hydrogen sulfide production)

Carl

[babygeige]

I haven't used any of the plant grower bed stuff. All of my plants are either attached to rocks or just planted in the gravel. Cyptocoryne plants are nice low light plants. I have a few Flourish Tabs in the gravel near them since I don't have proper plant substrate and they do very well.

I think that the depletion time of the nutrients in the plant grower bed would depend on the type of plants that you have. Some feed heavier than others. But like Carl said, the addition of extra ferts makes a difference. Flourish tabs are inexpensive. The package recommends replacing them about every 3 months.

Do you know what kind of plants you're going to try?

[chefmg]

Java's Cyptocoryne's Anubias are some of the plant varieties I have been considering ...
and you are absolutely correct babygeige ! Cyptocoryne's come in many attractive varieties , and from what I have been reading most are low light " Easy " beginner plant's ... Thanx ! and it is always great to see someone from the Burgh !!! My home !!! even though it has been 10 years in Tampa now for me ... Go STEELERS !!! Go Pens !!! Ohhhh those Pirates...

[bikeguy33]

back to the lead bands.....could this be a product like tin foil that no longer has tin but in fact aluminum?? you have a name for so many years, even changing recipes it retains the old name...

[babygeige]

Apr 7, 2009 10:48:19 GMT -5 chefmg said:

Java's Cyptocoryne's Anubias are some of the plant varieties I have been considering ...
and you are absolutely correct babygeige ! Cyptocoryne's come in many attractive varieties , and from what I have been reading most are low light " Easy " beginner plant's ... Thanx ! and it is always great to see someone from the Burgh !!! My home !!! even though it has been 10 years in Tampa now for me ... Go STEELERS !!! Go Pens !!! Ohhhh those Pirates...

Cool! What part of Pittsburgh are you from? The Pens clinched their playoff spot a few days ago which is awesome!

If those are the types of plants you are considering, then substrate isn't really too much of a concern. It will help the crypts, but the anubias and java fern do fine when attached to rock or wood. You can bury their roots in the substrate, just make sure their rhizomes are above ground.

Here is a new picture of my 10 gallon. I've just got regular old gravel in here with anubias in the back left on the rock, crypt lutea in the front left and middle, and java fern on the right. I kept the lutea in the front shorter by removing longer leaves and eventually it began to grow shorter ones.

[angelminx]

As to substate, Carl mentioned changing out my gravel (1/3 at a time) because of problems I am having with possible aeromonas in the gravel.

I have Flourite. [BTW, when I first started using it, they only had the original, and I mixed it into the pea-type "river rock" that I had]. I wanted to have a darker subsrtate (it sure is hard to find those cories with natural gravel), so when Seachem came out with Fluorite Dark, I bought enough to do the whole tank in Fluorite. The photos (no one carried any of the Fluorite varieties around here) showed it as a dark, uniform brown (I don't remember who I ordered it from, but it was over the phone--no computer back then), but what I got looked just like what I had before, only slightly darker. Anyway, after I changed the old stuff out, one day I noticed an empty Trumpet Snail shell (about 1 1/2 inches long) floating at the top of the tank. I had never had them before, but I sure had an infestation now. The floating shell was the only big one I found; all the live snails were 1/2 inch long or less. It took me forever to get rid of them (at one point I kept all of them that I had removed, and in close to 2 weeks time I had nearly a cup of them). I had really decreased their numbers (I ended up usually collecting only a couple at a time, and these were less than 1/4 inch), but it wasn't long before we had the ice storm that left us without power for close to 24 hrs and I lost all my fish! I had to restart everything and get a whole new set of fish.

Anyway, for the new substrate I want to use Seachem's Onyx Sand (because of the color/darkness, and because I have naturally low KH and it is supposed to have some buffering quality), and to top it off with a dark #3 or #5 gravel like Carl advised. He did say that you could just use the plant substrate around the plants' roots, but I'm a little uneasy about going that route (it sure would help my budget, though!). The problem is, My plants have a tendency to easily uproot--at least the stem plants do (once they get a foothold, the Swords and Crypts stay in place with out a problem, and the Anubias have their rocks to hold on to, although they put roots down into the substrate as well), either from me unintentionally disturbing them (usually from them getting tangled in the net or from them "grabbing" onto me or the maintenance equipment), or when I have to remove them for pruning or to catch "a fish or two" for some reason. Then, when I replant them (or any cuttings I decide to keep) I usually can't get them back where they were. How do you handle this with the "partial planted substrate" method?

Another problem I have when planting, is that I get one plant in, then when I go to add the next one, the first one comes "undone" and floats up to the surface. That's one reason I gave up on Vals. I do lightly wrap the Water Sprite and Wisteria with "lead" plant anchors, just to keep them from floating to/on the surface, but the W. Sprite, especially, likes to "walk around" the tank, because their root system isn't that strong. With my hornwort, I have to anchor one end down just to keep it from getting itself so tangled up with the W.Sprite and Wisteria. It sure is hard to untangle when it does!

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Carl]

Then, when I replant them (or any cuttings I decide to keep) I usually can't get them back where they were. How do you handle this with the "partial planted substrate" method?

I always hold back some of the plant substrate, whether it be Flourite, Azoo Grower Bed, Eco complete, etc.
I then use a handful or whatever needed to replant the loose or new plant.
This is a common problem, but easily solved IMO

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Jun 20, 2014 2:30:39 GMT -5 angelminx said:

How do you handle this with the "partial planted substrate" method?

Another problem I have when planting, is that I get one plant in, then when I go to add the next one, the first one comes "undone" and floats up to the surface.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I'm not sure how deep the substrate is, but some of the plants I got had a little black container that came with it. It also had rock wool in them to hold the roots. I removed the rock wool, but just buried the container with the roots in the substrate. I made sure to put rocks in the container first, then buried the container. Haven't had any come up. The only plant I've had come up was one I didn't do this too

Hope that helps.

[angelminx]

I'm ordering some of the Seachem Onyx Sand. Does anyone have any suggestions for cleaning it prior to use?

I will be adding it to an established tank--the one Carl mentioned the substrate change-over for. I've read that the smaller gained gravel will work its way lower into the substate medium. I'm going to move some of the #3 aside for the addition of the Onyx Sand for the plants, and then "cover it back up" with the natural gravel (I still would prefer black or darker grey, but I found some "dark" natural gravel that I purchased). I assume that whatever ends up "in the wrong place" will eventually "right itself" by this "re-organization".

[devonjohnsgard]

Jul 4, 2014 15:24:52 GMT -5 angelminx said:

I'm ordering some of the Seachem Onyx Sand. Does anyone have any suggestions for cleaning it prior to use?

I will be adding it to an established tank--the one Carl mentioned the substrate change-over for. I've read that the smaller gained gravel will work its way lower into the substate medium. I'm going to move some of the #3 aside for the addition of the Onyx Sand for the plants, and then "cover it back up" with the natural gravel (I still would prefer black or darker grey, but I found some "dark" natural gravel that I purchased). I assume that whatever ends up "in the wrong place" will eventually "right itself" by this "re-organization".

This is what I have. I have the sand, then SeaChem Flourite (not super needed, but helps so much with having a lot of plants with good growth), then the gravel on top. When I put the sand in, I didn't worry about washing it. It come pre-washed. My plants are thriving too

[angelminx]

I've got the Flourite right now, but that's what I'm replacing, because of the possible Aeromonas. When I added it (the tank was already set up), I removed the Flourite/gravel mix that I had at the time (I had the original, and wanted to switch it out for the new--at the time--Flourite Dark) and I put the new stuff in without washing it...the water was cloudy afterwards for a couple days. The batch of "Original" Flourite that I had, I had washed out some before use, and it only clouded up for a couple of hours.

[Carl]

Jul 4, 2014 20:42:33 GMT -5 angelminx said:

I've got the Flourite right now, but that's what I'm replacing, because of the possible Aeromonas. When I added it (the tank was already set up), I removed the Flourite/gravel mix that I had at the time (I had the original, and wanted to switch it out for the new--at the time--Flourite Dark) and I put the new stuff in without washing it...the water was cloudy afterwards for a couple days. The batch of "Original" Flourite that I had, I had washed out some before use, and it only clouded up for a couple of hours.

The Seachem Onyx Sand is a more carbonate/calcium based product than Flourite and should only be used in tanks such as Aftrican Cihlids or even marine aquariums where the fish prefer a higher carbonate level

Because of this, even though "Clean" out of the bag it will cloud up the water much more than flourite (similar to how many crushed coral and similar substrates may do with marine aquariums)

Carl

[angelminx]

I was thinking of using the Onyx Sand to help out with my KH instability. Would you recommend maybe using 1/2 Onyx Sand and 1/2 Flourite Black Sand for the "base" for the plants, or to not use the Onyx Sand at all? I'm going with an approximate 4cm base, with the #3 gravel on top. I'm going to use the sand more for around the plant roots, but I'm not sure exactly where I'm going to situate the plants when I move them, so I was planning to add a little sand to the entire bottom, too.