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Post by jonv on Nov 26, 2008 14:17:44 GMT -5
I still have 6 packets of the Furan II left over from the order Carl, so we'll have that ready to go if needed. The seller did indicate to me, this species tends to be more active at night, and that they must put a lot of energy into mating because the fin loss did occur as well last time he spawned for him.
Not over the hump I agree Carl, but considering that finding him in a bag with just literally enough water to say there is water in the bag, and it was like 40 degrees outside and no heating pack, I'm inclined to think he is going to make it. I've planned pretty much to watch him tightly for about a week or so and take action as needed. I am about 90% sure, he was too stressed to make it if I had not taken those Oblique's out because now he doesn't mind staying up near the top instead of just sitting on the bottom.
I think this is a problem with peaceful types. Something like say the Yellow Labs, or even Discus. When you have a peaceful cichlid, they either will lose a fight outright or just die off from the stress put on them when housed with others that are too aggressive.
This is just a guess that I cannot prove outright, but I'm betting those Bythobates and Paratilapia Polleni don't mess with this guy because they must have some sort of recognition of the species. The Oblique's don't come from Madagascar, but the other two do and exert very little aggression on him. With the Oblieque's, even the females were harassing him which isn't something you usually see in Africans. And let me tell you all, those Bythobates, they are morphing with a nice looking red/orange look, but they are downright nasty little SOB's. I've watched them among themselves and the bigger ones don't take any $hit from anyone at all.
I really do think too, that the females are there with him, he's trying harder to perk up which also seems to play into what 8 mentioned before. Males seeing the females tend to display more colors and show off to attract them. The females also seem to look out for him as well. I will see them swim close to him and even chase off the others if they get close.
In short, he's up on top trying to move around instead of sitting on the bottom, and to me, that's a good sign to see. For now, I'm going to increase up salt and bath him a few more times and see if that will do the trick, and if not, then I'll go with isolation with Furan II, Meth Blue and smaller wonder shells for a more aggression treatment. I will watch to see if anything starts to reverse Carl, and any signs that he's regressing, I'll isolate him right away.
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Post by jonv on Nov 26, 2008 14:20:20 GMT -5
John, this is a Madagascar species, but which part, I'm not sure. I've seen an article that indicates, this species is located in several parts of the island. I find they have a look rather close to South and Central Americans, at least in general shape and colors. This species really does not seem to show hardly much aggression at all for a cichlid, even more so as the Bythobates and Polleni do show a much higher aggression level. Of course, it's only been 1 day keeping them, but just looking how they act, and how torn up their fins get, I'd have to say this species is probably more peaceful then the yellows. It sort of makes sense, since most fish from Malawi, like the Yellows have to be aggressive just to survive in that habitat.
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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 26, 2008 15:19:01 GMT -5
sorry Jon, didn't realize I was reading page 2 - missed page 1 totally - wondered why a lot of it didn't make sense to me - good luck my friend - everyone who sees my tanks says they love the "yellow fish" best..... ;D
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 26, 2008 18:46:37 GMT -5
I'm so sorry to hear Jon. I feel so bad for the fish. I wish that person had at least taken some consideration into their fish before they shipped it. That's why when I sell my fish I never ship them. If anything wnet wrong while I was shipping fish and something bad happened like this, not only would I feel horrible for the buyer but I would probably never be able to forgive myself about the fish. I consider myself far too inexperienced for a job like that, especially with temps at at 10 F each day.
I wish you luck with the fish Jon.
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Post by jonv on Nov 26, 2008 19:59:17 GMT -5
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Post by jonv on Nov 26, 2008 20:04:54 GMT -5
Oh yeah side note here to the public. I had discussed with Carl what the sellers had indicated to me, that this species is kept in a brackish tank. I can only assume also that if I had a true brackish condition in that tank, his recovery in there would probably be much faster, though he's looking much much better then yesterday. I've got to wonder that a fish that should or evolves in brackish conditions, probably has an unusally high amount of slime coat on the body, and given what happend to him arriving, the loss of the slime coating, being in brackish waters probably would speed the production of the body slime. I just haven't found an ideal place to put all the cories, but once the bottom feeders are figured out, I'll probably adjust that tank to be brackish and become a Madagascar only tank.
It'll be a bit challenging though. The whole reason I got that 100 gallon tank was to have an enviroment so that when my Malawi's spawned, and grew out of the 15, they'd have an intermediate home to grow a bit more before putting them in with the adults in the 180. If I lose that 100 to be a Madagascar tank, it's going to put a big strain on the breeding operations I have going. Of course, it's possible I could just move the 75 gallon back here and implement that as the intermediate tank, however, that homes the Datinoid, which is a predator fish. How this is all going to work out still, will be something hard to plan out.
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 26, 2008 20:25:06 GMT -5
Very nice videos. The cichlids are beautiful. Hope everything works out with your tanks.
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Post by Carl on Nov 26, 2008 20:26:36 GMT -5
I am glad to read he continues to improve, I also agree with your point as to the salt content and slime coat generation. Maybe increasing the salt will help the ragged females as well. Melafix is a pretty safe/inert treatment that may help as well. Carl
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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 26, 2008 20:54:00 GMT -5
good luck my friend - where would you find out exactly how to create the brackish conditions you need? I would suggest flooding your basement to make room for more fish, but you'd probably do it - I know I would if I had the opportunity! wife and kids do it enough letting the laundry tub overflow....LOL! don't mean to change the subject, but have you ever raised rusty cichlids?
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Post by jonv on Nov 27, 2008 14:34:17 GMT -5
Nope haven't done a rusty John, it sounds like a SA though, and assuming it is, Bill might know a bit about them. For SA's, I have tried going with Aquedins Pulcher, the Blue Acara, however, they were just too mild for the Africans as well as the water didn't mix too good for them. Just thought I'd try it. I've had Angels before, but damn I tell you, they always picked on each other, and that was before I jumped into Africans. I also had a pair of 8 inch Oscars, but my idiotic actions killed one so I had to rehome the other. At the time, I didn't realize that you should de-chlorinate water when doing a water change, and I was just putting in water right from tap. It took about a week or so then everyone just started dying off, and the ammonia levels went off the chart. Seriously, I didn't know you were supposed to de-chlorinate until after. The ammonia in the 75, this was before we got the 180 too btw, was like about 6 or 7 ppm. Don't ask me how but a few of those fish did make it, notably, the Datinoid was one. He didn't seem to really care nor mind at all, in fact he resisted very much being netted. That fish is one SMART fish too. It's almost like he knows exactly where you can't get your net and goes right for it while you're trying to corner him. Of course back then, he was just a couple inches in size. He's grown a bit now On the Nossibee's, I think the male is in the clear. Carl has given some caution notes, and I'll implement most of them. But as I was saying to Carl today, (Among other fun topics we covered and Thanksgiving) if I look at the stages this guy has done, I'm extremely optimistic this is going to be ok. Going from on the verge of death, to acclimated, struggling a bit in the tank, to now today, he's very level in the tank, going after flake a bit, and has no issues staying in the mid levels of the tank as well. Come up to the tank close to look in on him, you will see his eyes shift, focus and look back at you as well, and he doesn't spook and run for cover. The darker female still takes up station around him, warding off most anyone that comes near him. I have to confess though, this is a major learning experience as little is known about this species. I should start a small blog on this too. I am starting to think, the dynamics of this species is very different then other Madagascars as well as Africans in general. The females actually seem to be the higher aggressive of the species, and that, assuming these are females, are watching over that male. I have seen what I am assuming is the beginning of a bond too. I can't say conclusively though because I just don't know, but the female at times will "kiss" if you will, the male and sometimes push/nip into his tail, but no reaction of defense or aggression back from the male. This reminds me a little of Oscar bonding but much less physical. Again, I'm just guessing.
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Post by Carl on Nov 27, 2008 16:37:00 GMT -5
don't mean to change the subject, but have you ever raised rusty cichlids? I have raised many Rusty African Cichlids as these were very common and easy to keep Mbuna back in the 90s and many of my clients had these Cichlids that had African cichlid aquariums. I personally found them to be among the most peaceful Mbuna I kept (& easy to breed) Here is a link for them: www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=707Jon; Glad he is coming a long well, as per our discussion earlier today! Carl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Nov 27, 2008 18:46:20 GMT -5
well john....sorry i havent been able to add much to this. work has been very intense the last week or 2. but what i will say....don`t expect this guy to stay as mellow as he is. his body shape is that of a hunter.....not prey to hide. also the fact he is obviously NOT nocturnal, judging by his regular sized eyes, and the fact he gets active at dusk or darker conditions screams ambush hunter. i may be wrong but he has all these physical traits that sure seem to go that way. he is new in the tank and not 100%, but when he is i expect he`ll be a great protector for the females....again tho....all of this is just an opinion based on observation....
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Post by brenda on Nov 27, 2008 22:07:36 GMT -5
Cool Jon!!! Ia m glad to hear he is doing so much better. For all he had to go thru I certainly hope he makes it and lives a good long life with you!!! Good job caring for him!!!
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Post by jonv on Nov 29, 2008 18:02:13 GMT -5
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Post by Carl on Nov 29, 2008 19:03:08 GMT -5
Glad your new arrivals are improving everyday.
I also want to compliment Bill on his observation about these fish, I honestly never thought about this, but it makes since (GREAT comment Bill!)
As to the ovipositer, since I do not know much about these fish, I cannot comment, however I thought these to be rare among fish (except for Bitterlings), only common to insects and arthropods.
Carl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Nov 29, 2008 19:26:04 GMT -5
i hate to sound a lil on the stupid side...but what is an ovipositer. i tried to look up the term and it doesnt seem to help my misunderstanding of the word....
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Post by Carl on Nov 29, 2008 20:39:51 GMT -5
This is one of those things that a picture is worth a thousand words: And I found this pic (so I stand corrected from my previous statement): Carl
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Post by jonv on Nov 29, 2008 23:36:31 GMT -5
I always understood an ovipositer to be the female sex organ which lays the eggs. In Oscar mating, during the test of power, I've seen many Oscar keepers, including Ed mention that the Gondipodium (male sex organ) and Ovipositer (female sex organ) become visable. I just happend to see this on the females tonight and that's the only thing I can come up with. Both have it showing and they didn't when they first arrived. There are no other additions that go in and out of that tank, other then fry in to grow out, or juveniles big enough to the 180 going out. I can't see this being any parasite or disease related. I can only guess this would be a distendment of the ovipositer, but still no eggs laid that I can see.
That male, is 1000% better then when started, has no issues moving around at all and activity has increased about 300%. As one of the few things I have been able to read about this, and the other egg laying Madagascars, it appears they have a high tendancy to consume many of the eggs, and has been suggested that if to breed this species, it's probably necessary to try to remove the eggs after fertilization. I'll be on the watch out for eggs, but I'd love to try to figure out if this really is a female sex organ or not.
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 30, 2008 11:32:18 GMT -5
It's great that he's better! Congrats on that!
...Carl, what is your first picture of? I ahve no clue what it is.
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Post by jonv on Nov 30, 2008 21:27:49 GMT -5
Well that male must be doing just fine, because I had observed a few things lately, and I got a few shots I want to put up. I had noticed the lesser colored female spending a great deal of time in the middle area of the tank. There is a shell there and I noticed the gravel underneath the shell had been partially cleared out. I had been seeing that female always chasing anyone and everyone out of that area too. My first thought was, she was waiting for the male to come by and lay her eggs. As I looked closer, I saw little white spots all over that shell, so apparently, she has at least laid the eggs. I have no way to know if they are fertilized or not, but I guess in a few days, we'll see. I got this the best I could on the clips. It might not show too clear, but there are definetly eggs on that shell and she is watching over that area intensely. I find it a bit odd the male is not helping her though and actually spending a great deal of time around the other female. Based on this, I have to think that spot I posted last time on the females, must be an ovipositer. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=113008_2110b.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=113008_2111a.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=113008_2111b.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=113008_2112a.flv
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