|
Post by jonv on Nov 3, 2008 21:43:48 GMT -5
I'd really like Bill and John (8) to read this over, of course everyone is welcomed to. I find this interesting and am going to do some more ongoing research, but after reading this, I've already begun to wonder, maybe all Malagasy cichids are brackish fish. It certainly appears this species is. I'm already beginning to wonder, with the new group I'll be getting in a couple weeks, if whatever tank I keep as a Malagasy only tank, if keeping it brackish isn't going to be what's best. I know I know, more research is needed to get an idea, and if this turns out to be as I suspect, this might actually just work out well since that Datniod is approaching adult sizes, I know most species of those as well prefer to go Brackish too and I've yet to establish, set up and run a Brackish tank. Would love to hear some well thought out responses to this article: www.gcca.net/fom/Ptychochromis_grandidieri.htm
|
|
|
Post by jonv on Nov 3, 2008 21:56:44 GMT -5
Follow up 1 here, I just found a nice jackpot site here and gives a reference book to boot. This is pure Gold for anyone that might be inclined to follow in my footsteps here and keep these rare and endangered types. I can say clearly though, the colorations of most all of these species are nothing special to look at, and after reading this over, it's clearly 2 gears slower then your typical Malawi, Tangyangikan, or Victorian breeding rates, should this hold true. www.madagascarfish.org/cichlidae.html
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Nov 4, 2008 11:56:29 GMT -5
I read over the articles which pretty much speak for themselves IMO. I do find your question about these fish being brackish of interest as I have found this aspect interesting for quite sometime now and several years back experimented around a little with some Pink Tilapia I purchased that were fully FW and tried adjusting them to full SW with mixed results depending on how I acclimated them. I posted a similar thought with links about this on another thread you started, but I got no response, so here is a repost of my thread: One fascination of Tilapia that others here may or may not be aware of is that it is a major fish of the Salton Sea of California which is a larger saltwater lake near the Mexican border that has come and gone through geologic history. This is an important fisherie both ecologically and for sport and I have always found it an interesting case study in fish adaptation as only the pup fish can truly claim native status. Many of the fish are from the Ocean Waters off the coast of Baja CA. such as the Corvina that have adapted to the high fluctionating salinity (often over 25% of the ocean) as well as extreme temperatures from high tropical temperatures to low interior winter temperatures. Also Oxygen levels fluctuate widely. In this mix is the Tipalia that found its way from introduction of nearby rivers and these fish have managed to survive the increasing salinity, and temperature extremes. Please reference these articles: www.sci.sdsu.edu/salton/BiolResponsetoSalinityAppG.htmlAnd this site: www.saltonsea.ca.gov/thesea.htmCarl
|
|
|
Post by brenda on Nov 4, 2008 12:15:06 GMT -5
Good articles Jon!!! Have you had a chance to read over the one I put in the other post? I found that interesting as well. Looks like it will be a while before any breeding takes place.
I also wanted to ask...Do you know exactly what kind of Datnoides you have? They do not all go to brackish water and I'd hate to see something happen to him after growing him out for so long. AT and NGT go in brackish waters but ST, IT, and NTT are completely freshwater. I just know there are a lot of misconceptions about the Dats out there. Even LFS will generally put IT's in brackish tanks to sell when they are actually completely FW. I know he is not ST as these can't even be imported anymore and are very rare and pricey now in the US. Just trying to help Jon. I may not always know a lot but this I do know.
|
|
|
Post by jonv on Nov 4, 2008 12:17:17 GMT -5
I did see that Carl sorry just wasn't sure what to mention about that really. I'd think Bill probably would know the most about this aspect and was hoping to hear from him on this whole thing too. From what you have posted it would seem to me, just on an initial glance, that Tilapia's themselves appear to be either a brackish fish or highly adaptable to brackish conditions. I have a brackish species in the Datinoid and have found mixed reports on that fish. Most sites will say that young to juvenile fish of this species, Datinoids, can be kept in straight FW tanks but as they reach adult ages and sizes, they in the wild migrate towards brackish conditions and if you don't adjust them to brackish conditions, are subject to die off.
It makes me wonder what happens in a fish that would need brackish conditions really. Without extensive studies personally in biology, I would have to guess that there must be some sort of hormonal shift in a fish at that age that either causes the shut down or activation of organs and the need for salt? What would you think about that? To me, I think it's a real wonder how and why a fish would go from living and growing in straight FW conditions and acquire a need to be in brackish conditions.
I can see and have seen many indicate, even here too, from Bill and John (8) I think, saying the drop in water temps trigger spawning in fish as they have evolved in water conditions that the temp drop makes the fish feel like a seasonal rain has occurred and that would make sense to me. Tank raised or not, just as with people, it would take numerous generations in a tank I'd have to think, to alter this. If we use humans as the example, (not sure if that's appropriate or not though) clearly we are not the same people as our descendants say 10-15 generations back. We are now living longer due to medical advances for one thing, and our enviromental conditions have changed almost drastically.
On the human note, as you most all know, I take a particular interest in the climate, culture and events that go on in Indonesia. Of particular, I have an affinity for the volcano's there. About 75,000 years ago I think it was, Toba, a volcano on the island of Sumatra, exploded and that resulting explosion, though in Indonesia, wiped out almost 90-95% of all humans at that time period and actually shaped human genetics! The wipe out and subsequent regrowth of the human populations can show and trace back our genetics to I think, 2 distinct lines of humans, and this, all because of the triggered volcanic winter globally due to the natural greenhouse effect of gasses emitted and trapped particles in the atmosphere. Sometimes nature just has it's own way of reminding us of how small we are in the universal picture.
|
|
|
Post by jonv on Nov 4, 2008 12:26:25 GMT -5
I did and actually found your article posted last night when scanning over for additional information about this whole Madagascar aspect. I'm inclined to think this for the time being. Most of these species either migrate towards brackish at some point or need it, though there are some that don't. There are a limited number, by a whole view point of cichlids themselves, in Madagascar, about 22 species I think it is? I had mentioned to Carl on the phone this aspect, but we got cut off before going into depth on this. If one looks at Madagascar itself, it's an island and seperated from the African continent itself. I have to wonder if some geological event didn't cause this at some point in time and that subsequent seperation from the continent didn't effect the evolution of the fish that basically got trapped on the Island.
It appears when looking at the species on Madagascar, they are either ancient or have evolved much slower then their continental relatives. I think the looks, body shape, and lack of colorations in typical Madagascars compared to Malawi, Victorian, and Tangyangikans support this idea. How these species act in themselves too differs quite a bit from the continental cichlids as well. I think in the second article I linked, it indicated that these species tend to be more aggressive among themselves, then outsiders of the species, which I find unusual and a probable cause towards their dying off in the natural habitat. I think it leads one to conclude, they have a weaker or lack the ability to fight off invasive things because they focus too much on their own species when it comes to boundries and space. I'm just speculating on that.
The Datinoid, I'm not really sure. It appears to be the typical kind found on Irian Jaya of Indonesia, and those as I understand it go brackish. I'm not that educated on these things really, and not sure how I would know if something is going on in the Dat that would need his water chemistry shifted. If you can find something that talks about this or how to determine if this is a brackish or straight fw type, that would be a big help.
|
|
|
Post by brenda on Nov 4, 2008 13:54:33 GMT -5
Here is a link with the correct info...It is not the one I usually use but it has the correct info. The one I used to use doesn't seem to be working... www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/siam-tig.htm I was trying to find the picture you had posted of you Dat on the old site to see what kind you had, but I couldn't find it. When you say it was from Irian Jaya it could very well be an NGT (new guinea tiger) which is brackish/freshwater.
|
|
|
Post by goldenpuon on Nov 4, 2008 14:43:10 GMT -5
That's really interesting Jon V about the fish genetic as well as that an explosion shaped our genetics. What's interesting about fish though such as guppies or even goldfish is that when we stop selectively line breeding them, then they start to go back to the wild version of what they were before tey were domesticated. For example, if people were to just let their show guppies mix and breed with just any guppy, eventaully their colors would become less noticeable and they'd look more like their wild counterparts. I read this when i was doing research on breeding uppies and found it very interesting.
Also what you posted about temperature triggering spawning is a very good point. Many fish like to spawn at a certain temeprature that mimics the temperature when it's their breeding season or tricking their systems into thinking it is time to breed because the condidiotns are best for their fry.
Nature is really amazing.
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Nov 4, 2008 15:03:44 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by jonv on Nov 4, 2008 16:30:41 GMT -5
Renee, one thing you probably or should have encountered when it comes to colors in a fish, is colors tend to be more of protection or camoflauge too. I've talked with other cichlid keepers on that regard, and I'm sure this has to carry over to the other species as well. Wild fish would tend to develop color patterns that are in it's natural enviroment to offer protection against predators and natural enemies. You take tank kept fish or collect some species from the wild, and start breeding them in a tank, one would have to expect the beginning of a shift in the colors.
Each generation kept in a tank over time should begin to alter or morph into the colors you have in your tank and much of that should be influenced by what you also keep in the tank. I don't have any articles or facts to back this up, so I'm speculating, you'll see less alteration in the "pure" genetics of a wild to tank kept fish, if you keep it in a species only tank, vs a community tank. Take any wild species and keep in a community tank where it's in with fish it doesn't naturally encounter, factor in the nature of survival of the fittest, and gradually over numerous generations, I'd have to expect to see some shifting in tank kept fish of the species.
It may well take 1000's of years to diverge off the line, and I'd be willing to bet, it's going to depend on how wide of a range you change the conditions it's evolved from to what you keep it in too. Cichlid keepers that are breeding and keeping only certain color patterns of say peacocks or haps that have several color morphs to a species, in reality, are using line breeding to promote certain genetics of a species.
|
|
|
Post by jonv on Nov 4, 2008 16:32:08 GMT -5
With the main point being this though about the colors. Take those Peacocks that are line bred for the Yellow in them, and then put them back into their lake of origin say 10-20 generations later, I'd probably have to wonder just how effective this might have improved the survival rate or endangered the rate of survival in it's natural habitat just by using color as a selective breeding trait.
|
|
|
Post by bikeguy33 on Nov 4, 2008 19:37:53 GMT -5
i didnt have the time to read through the article as yet and am heading soon to the flames vs coyotes game....but what i will say about tilapia is that they are extremely tough buggers. this is one reason why they are such in demand as a farmed food fish. you just can`t kill them. also.....i havent added this yet, but the only med we can legally use is salt. our holding tanks are very very near brackish. so much so that my eyes burn when they splash in them. we go through a 5 ton truck of salt every 2 weeks. also.....they can live in waters less than perfect. we strive to keep our levels low....but they do rise once in awhile with no ill affect.
i will add more when i read the article, although i`d be very interested to hear the results of carls experiments on the subject.
|
|
|
Post by jonv on Nov 25, 2008 23:19:46 GMT -5
Well I finally did get the Pytchochromis Nossibeensis in. You just aren't going to believe what happend with the male though. First backtracking a bit. Turns out the seller I was going to buy from, went out of town the week I was going to pay for them, and the person caring for the tanks, screwed something up and the females all died. He still had the adult male, so I figured, since he did me a favor pulling the auction, I'd buy that male, and I would just get females from a local guy. So I pay him and he sent out the male yesterday. Postal delivery shows up, says I don't know if you want this box or not, it's all wet. I've seen some boxes did that but you know, not very bad in the bags. So he brings it over, and the box is so wet it's like crumbling apart. They put a plastic bag around a postal bin and gave me the bin. The box degraded so much I was able to get right to the bag without having to "open" the box. I just peeled the box apart. I looked at the bag, and it was like practically devoid of water. Saw the fish just laying on it's side in about 10 centiliters of water. Figured a DOA. First DOA I'd have gotten off shipping in like 18 months. Damn and I had the females on the way in. So I'm going to take a pic of this fish to show proof of DOA, and don't you know, I see the fish's mouth moving a very little. I immeditely called Carl because I wanted to know if maybe that might be just nerves still twitching or not. As it's ringing Carl, the fish actually jerked a bit like it was trying to move and I was like HOLY poop he's alive!!! So Carl talked me through what to do because I was just in shock that a fish could survive on literally, just enough water to trickle through it's gills, and the temps out here are about 40 or so, and no heater bag either. I had to do a rush acclimation, no choice. I put 2 cups of tank water right into the bag, and found, it wasn't a busted bag, but since he didn't double bag it, the bottom was leaking pretty good. So I doubled up the bag, added a good strong dose of Meth Blue and acclimated him over 90 minutes. I'll link the video's I took. F me I swear he did make it though, at least so far. The two females came in much later, about 700 or so and were quite fine. A little small I have to say but hey, they are moving around very well. Over the last few hours though, the male has started to get very sluggish and another call to Carl. I'm in between establishing quick the 2.5 gallon Betta tank and trying to salt/meth blue him back, or maybe moving him down to the 15 where it's just that group of Yellow Lab fry there. Either way, he just tends to pick a spot in the corner and just sit there. He'd been getting targeted, by the female Obliqueidens of all fish. I just moved the three Oblique's over to the 180. I'd been very worried those nasty Bythobates would go after him, but so far, they just gather around him and kind of look at him and leave him be. Probably going to be touch and go with this guy for a week or so. I swear, I've never been able to recover a fish that has endured such a trial like this. That he's even alive and moving around a bit just amazes me. This guy's a real trooper. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=112508_1438a.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=112508_1438b.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=112508_1439a.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=112508_1440a.flv
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Nov 26, 2008 10:28:24 GMT -5
I am sorry for your difficult new arrival. I just looked at him this morning (via the videos), sorry I did not have time to get back on the computer last night). He definitely did not look good and definitely is at risk of an opportunistic infection. Here is what would be best (this still is not always successful, but it has been as I too have recieved MANY fish in the condition you described): *A seperate bare tank for isolation and treatment. *To this tank add and maintain Methylene Blue, 1-2 teaspoons salt per gallon, a wonder shell for more electrolytes, Prime or other natural slime coat generating conditioner (or the aloe based Stress Coat is useful here). *After viewing the video he already seems to under bacterial attack, so I would add Nirtrofurazone ( Furan II) to this tank (Kanaplex, Triple Sulfa or Minocylcine/Maracyn II can allso be used) I really hope your efforts pay off Jon Carl
|
|
|
Post by brenda on Nov 26, 2008 10:56:42 GMT -5
Wow..Jon. That is quite the story. I sure am rooting for this guy. Thanks goodness for Carl huh?
|
|
|
Post by jonv on Nov 26, 2008 11:16:53 GMT -5
Well he made it through the night, and seems to be out and moving around much more then before. I think he was getting a good amount of aggression from those Obliquedins was the problem in that part. He still doesn't exactly look well, plus there is that spot on the eye. That I think is something unless he could have done that in the bag. As I understand this, from the other seller on the females, it appears this species can get some ragged fins and such pretty easy. In terms of aggression, this species might just be even more peaceful then the Labidochromis Careleus.
I could see through very dim light in the living room, he went out and moved around more once I turned the lights off. Just on that alone, I'm inclined to think this is a noctournal species. Can't prove or conclude that on just that alone yet. I'll have to get another filter pack for that 2.5 gallon tank. I have to say, as weak as he is right now, netting and isolating him won't be very difficult to do so use of the baths might be a good thing. I still have about 6 packets of the Furan II also. Probably I can break off a shell to make it smaller, or just add a whole shell to the 100, which could help all the fish anyways.
He has his moments when he can level and right himself and move around, but most of the time, he's a bit off kilter, angled head up in the tank. Not to be surprised considering what he's gone through already I do believe the presence of the females is making him more active though, as I notice they seem to spend some decent time in his area too. I'll try to get some shots of the females. This species looks to be monomorphic so I am trusting the seller on this one. I got them from Jeff Rapps off Tangledupincichlids.com. Jeff comes reccomended by at least 2 other people I know, so I do trust he knows what he's doing in terms of sexing them.
I would just highly increase the salt in the tank, but I do have a group of those cories in the tank, and would have to practically deviod the tank of all bottom feeders to do so. Maybe down the road as he gets healthier I'll do that, as he's an easy enough fish to net and bath when needed.
|
|
|
Post by jonv on Nov 26, 2008 11:30:02 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by murdock6701 on Nov 26, 2008 12:12:01 GMT -5
Jon, they're beautiful! and as mellow as yellows? where are they from?
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Nov 26, 2008 13:45:33 GMT -5
Glad he made it through the night Jon.
To be honest though he does not appear to be over the "hump" yet as I have seen fish go through exact ordeal only to succumb to opportunistic infection later, so please keep an eye on him (I am sure you will) and consider treatment such as the Furan II.
Carl
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Nov 26, 2008 13:53:39 GMT -5
Wow..Jon. That is quite the story. I sure am rooting for this guy. Thanks goodness for Carl huh? Thanks for the kind statement ;D Carl
|
|