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Post by jonv on Feb 4, 2009 15:02:54 GMT -5
After having some continued conversations, I am rethinking the Polleni and Pytcho plan. For over half a year now, I've wanted very much some Paratrolpeus Menarambo's and didn't proceed on it due to the very hefty price tag they usually carry.
I am now considering cutting out most of my Haps, keeping just the Pytcho's in the 100, and going with Fronts as my main fish in the 180. Apparently too, Venustus, while great looking fish IMO, don't pack much dollar value to breed. Taiwan Reefs are fetching a different price, so I'll probably keep those, and work on some color mixing in Peacocks. Most Mbuna are probably going to go or just be kept in my 75 gallon tanks. Fronts fetch higher value, would do well in the 180 and mixing substrate spawners is too likely to trigger fights and aggression over space, as well as too many eaten fry. For now, i'll stick with the Pytcho's and might even sell off the Polleni. Mixing mouthbrooders and substraters are proving to be an incompatible mix.
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Post by Carl on Feb 4, 2009 17:25:27 GMT -5
Mixing mouthbrooders and substraters are proving to be an incompatible mix. This is good to know and should be mentioned on a future Fish Profile Carl
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Post by barbara on Feb 4, 2009 18:30:19 GMT -5
Unless you are buying wild caught Fronts, the price tag for aquarium strain Frontosa fry isn't particularily high either. Unless that's something you have your heart set on, that wouldn't be my first choice. Plus, if you are buying Frontosa fry, you are looking at 5 years to breed. They grow so slowly.
With a 180, I don't know what I'd put in it. If I had softer water, I'd consider something large and Madagascan...not realy sure what it would be tho.
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Post by jonv on Feb 4, 2009 20:11:55 GMT -5
I do want the Madagascars Barb, but I'm also looking at two nice big sized tank, one medium and 2 small tanks. I am thinking if I am going to stock and keep stock, why not keep stock that's also going to fetch some money on the side as well. Typical common Mbuna, can sell for as little as 1 dollar to maybe 2-3 dollars a fish, and that's at sub adult sizes really. There are some promising Haps out there that appear to have some nice dollar values on them.
One thing that got passed on to me, is in general, bigger fish like Haps that yield large broods too, usually bring the dollar value down. Clearly we could point out a few exceptions to that here and there. I'm just trying to jog my brain to figure, ok what has some nice money to it, and what can they go with, with what I already have in mind. Selling off or trading off my Mbuna, I wouldn't lose sleep over it because getting more of them wouldn't be any challenge.
I do like my Haps though. My Venustus however, isn't going to make squat on money. Maybe .50 cents a fish even just because they give 60 plus fry a brood. Common fish as well. The Taiwan Reefs do look like they have some potential. I've got some asking prices on my second adult male going into the 30 dollar range. I'm also getting a request for my dominant adult male Electric blue Hap also. I've often wanted Red Empress's myself, but they don't as well have decent money to them.
I will echo back what you said Barb, that wild caught, has nice money to it. I see the stock prices from Dave and Atlantis significantly higher then tank bred. While I didn't mention it, and big thank you for putting it in the discussion, I was aware of that and the time it takes to grow them out. I think this is the big reason why you'll see whole colonies of these types going 300 400 and 500 a colony. My thought was to get adults, maybe just a male and 2 females to start so it's not big money yet sunk into it, or just gradually collect up some larger adults that are wild caught. I also am not overly in love with the adult look of these and that big old hump they usually get, but if I'm getting requests and money for them, I can live with it.
What Dr. Loiselle pointed out about those cats and bottom feeders, this along with Mbuna already being in the substrate, it's going to be problems and stress with substrate spawning Madagascars. So either I give that 180 to the Polleni and Pytcho's and stop there, or I have to give the 100 to just one of those species only. Even with a 180, two substrate spawning species, that's not as much space as it looks, especially if you have multiple females in there. We're talking in terms of the Polleni alone, like 8 inch potential in males and about 6 inch potential in females, that chews up space rather fast, and doesn't leave much space for other substraters, without them fighting over it. Plus fry also would have a greater odd of being eaten even in a tank with those dimensions. It's starting to look to me, like it's highly advised to do one substrate spawning species only, per tank.
So this kind of sucks really. Half way into my vision of collecting up Madagascars and Victorians, the whole scheme needs to be reviewed before these guys become full grown adults and fights start breaking out like you'd expect in a Malawi tank. Stress like that is going to keep health in the tank down, which is not a good thing. If I only had the money to get a few more medium or larger tanks, and space, and a spouse that wouldn't lose their mind over it.....
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Post by barbara on Feb 4, 2009 20:44:09 GMT -5
I'm afraid I'm not much help. I've not really considered the $$ aspect of it. I get what I enjoy most, and end up giving fry away. If I turned this into being about money, I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much. That's just my point of view. My goals are different than a lot of fish keepers, and I'm aware of that. I keep several mixed tanks, because I like what's in it, but I keep quite a few species tanks for my Vics.
Going to an auction this weekend by the HCCC, I'm really excited, even though I can't really house anything right now. I still love to see what people in my area are producing.
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Post by eve on Feb 4, 2009 20:54:28 GMT -5
I'm afraid I'm not much help. I've not really considered the $$ aspect of it. I get what I enjoy most, and end up giving fry away. If I turned this into being about money, I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much. That's just my point of view. My goals are different than a lot of fish keepers, and I'm aware of that. I keep several mixed tanks, because I like what's in it, but I keep quite a few species tanks for my Vics. Going to an auction this weekend by the HCCC, I'm really excited, even though I can't really house anything right now. I still love to see what people in my area are producing. well then we're already 2 i don't care about the money aspect either, i rather enjoy my fish and tanks i have if they breed it's an added bonus of course in learning more about their behavior
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Post by jonv on Feb 4, 2009 21:10:46 GMT -5
I'm not trying to make a living off it no. I do like those Madagascars and the Victorians too. If I can get rid of the Mbuna all together that's all fine with me. I like the look of the Venustus too, but if I consider what happens if I put females in with him, and they start breeding....let's look at it like this. Say I put three females in with him. He spawns with all of them, and at like 60 fry per female, that's almost 200 fry in one spawn setting. If I can't move them out, I end up having to just give these guys away to a pet store and who knows who they are selling to, with those little 10 gallon tanks and saying you can keep it in there to make a sale...
I can see like with those Polleni, if they don't pair off, and spawn in groups, that could over run the tank as well. I'm not sure that substraters really spawn in groups either. They might very well do so. I guess what I am saying, is that I do enjoy the fish for the most part like you two both do, but if they are going to be here and do their thing and spawn, why not just get fish that have money worth it as well? Not money to make a living off, as I'd need so many more tanks, but money that you could go out and get yourself a nice new camera with to take pics of them, without having that money come out of your pocket....I'm not trying to be greedy, and I'm just as happy buying and acquiring stuff I'm looking for too.
NJAS isn't having an auction until April. The Eastcoastcichlid group is going up to the Atlantis facility this month. They have a large selection of wild caughts there. That's the link I passed you in chat Eve. I never realized there's decent money in Dubosi's. I determined where mine was from as well. Mine is a Tropheus Dubosi (Kaboga) They are being sold out of Atlantis for about 16.00 a fish. Now that's not to shabby.
I'd like to point out as well, anyone on here, I don't charge for giving fish either. I gave John those yellows becuase he wanted them. He was just kind enough to help with the shipping. I'm talking about money in terms of having stock that the groups are asking for, so when they do spawn, there's something I get back along with the pleasure of keeping and watching them thrive. I really don't want to sound greedy, but if money can be made as well, why not?
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Post by murdock6701 on Feb 4, 2009 21:11:44 GMT -5
count me in on that one as well - I like color and flash and harmony and the relaxation and peace they bring me and the knowledge I gain by having them and watching them - when it starts being a job and not fun...... ?
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Post by barbara on Feb 4, 2009 22:54:44 GMT -5
Jon, I didn't mean to insult you, and I do understand your point of view. I get store credit for my cichlids, at least the common ones. The Victorians are my passion, and I don't know if I could consider selling them, and not having some control over where they go.
I honestly look at what is available, and what is on the endangered list. That helps to make my decisions. If I'm looking for a mixed tank, I look at size, compatibility, and color. I don't think I've bought anything that I wanted to breed for selling, but I've bought a lot that I want to distribute. I don't think I've bought anything that I've considered what the fry would bring. So I'm not much help in that.
I also know that different areas of the country have different wants and needs. It may be best for you to see what's popular in your area. Xmas Fulus are really common in my area, but most places they are still fairly rare. Victorians in general are rare in most parts of the country, with the exception of the Astatotilapia latifasciata, and the Hap. sp. 44.
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Post by jonv on Feb 5, 2009 2:16:52 GMT -5
I wouldn't even think of it that way at all Barb. I just wanted to clear up a bit more what I mean by making money off them is all. It's like I have my tank and then they'll spawn and I start thinking, ok now I have increased this population. Sometimes fry get eaten, like that Mutambai Hunter, he's whittled down those Yellow Labs for me a bit. It's natural for him to do it as well. Doesn't bother me, since I have to set up my 20 now to accomdate increasing numbers of holding females. The TR has her brood in the 15, and I figure sometime at the end of next week, that Obliquedin looks like she's going to make it with her brood.
If things keep continuing, and say that yellow lab spawn again, I've got to find a place anyways to put all these young fry, when adding another tank isn't much of an option. This keeps going on, a few months later, they start becomming juveniles and young adults, then I'm like oh boy. So I figure, ok I got the stock doing well, spawning, growing and such, and I see people in these forums, auctions listed, making some ok money that I could use as it is, so why not try stocking up fish people are going to buy.
On the Vic aspect, I agree very much with you. I'm sure some species, not just Vics, but Africans in general, you'll find a large number being bred, and then you look over a species you really like, no one in your area has that. Paratrolopeus Menarambo is a good example of that. I see one seller, the guy I got my Pytcho females from has these, but the price tag he's asking, though full grown adults, it too expensive to go with. So I found the guy that has an adult pair of Polleni, he's got some Menarambos. I offer him to trade some Pytcho fry for Menarambo fry when they spawn again, and bang. Happy campers all around. Unfortunatley, things don't always go that smoothly.
I see Vin over in the bronx, even with common Mbuna, he actually spawns and sells enough to make his rent and everything. No way I could do something like this for a living, but he's rather an outlet for me to get a little cash back on what I do breed. He'll pretty much take whatever I have, because he can move them. Takes pressure off my tanks when populations go up. But if Vin can move some better value fish in terms of money value, that's a good deal as well. I never get much luck at all off these auctions online either.
I started looking at this area, the price tags on many species. You know what I'd really love to learn how to do? Learn how to tell if a fish is really wild caught or not. I see all these F0's and even F1's and it makes you wonder, if people don't just say that. If I can learn what to look for, this should help big time. I also factor that endangered aspect. I find this important. But when I just went out and started grabbing up the Madagascars, I never had a thought in my head to consider the spacial needs of substrate spawners. A species like those Polleni that get some size, even that 180 is going to be small in groups of them, and Mbuna would be a big problem to keep at all with them. The presence of them in the substrate and rocks is going to drive stress and aggression very high. I consider Haps to be a decent option as most of the time, they are mid to upper level in the tank, and only need to come down to spawn. The presence of the Polleni or Pytcho's in the 180, might cause someone not to spawn even. Won't know till I see how it goes.
It should still leave me, unless the two substraters fight hard and mean, with the 100 to progess Victorian wise I hope. Fulu are the one species, if I can't keep anything else, that I'd build around. I really love the look of mature males. Hunters are proving very difficult Barb. The skinny fish, though fast moving, they spend a great deal of time hiding, and I think Mbuna aggression is a problem for these guys. The male in the 180, he hardly ever comes out. Population is much higher in there. The guy in the 100, he's out more, with less population in there. I can see now why the price tag on these guys is high. I've seen a small debate on NYcichlids, about the hunters. CF has posted information, that broods on this species, might go 8-10 max. Some on NYCichlids are saying you can get 15 to 20, it depends. The tangled web of information we weave LOL.
Should CF prove to be more accurate though, it makes more sense why the prices on these guys are very high. You only get 8-10 fry, maybe even less per spawn, makes a tough fish to keep and raise in numbers. I'd expect to pay over a 100 if I wanted to pick up 2-3 females because of that.
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Post by jonv on Feb 5, 2009 2:24:35 GMT -5
And I want to try to make something clear, this isn't totally tread related, but since joining and watching info in EastCoastCichilds and NYcichlids, I've found a taker for an extra male albino Taiwan reef I have, as well as my extra Electric Blue male I have. Shoot, if I stuck with aquabid or even CF trade post, I'd probably have these guys until the summer at least. Joining up with these other cichlid specific forums, has been a great benefit for additional points of views, as well as a whole "bank" of other fish keepers, local to me, that are looking and buying things I have.
My first place is always here, and to help with the things I know and have experience in. Our cichlid "corps" is nice with South American aspects with Bill, Victorian with you and Brenda, Mbuna with me and Eve, and I'm covering up the Madagascars. It's a good base of knowledge we have here. Not nearly as anything in cichlid specific, but that's not the goal of our group anyways. 8 is a super guy as well. He's kept quite a few different kinds over many years. Won't be long and John's probably going to join the breeding group aspect too. Ed who's been a bit MIA keeps some pretty good sized South Americans himself too.
The way I see it is like this. If you can keep and breed African or South American cichlids, you can keep more common community types. Breeding the common communities might be tougher. To be honest, I've never had a bubble nest builder spawn and I've got male and female Gourami. I haven't spent much time trying to either. I think what we have as a plus for our group though, is while we have a strong base of cichlid keepers, we have a rounded aspect with Goldfish, Betta's, and other community fish, so that anyone comming here, can find a niche or group of people that have things in common and share information. No one gets left out here. That is why I will always put more time in this place then others.
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Post by barbara on Feb 5, 2009 9:57:37 GMT -5
Wow, you left a lot to respond to.
OK, glad I didn't offend, wasn't my intent. I do understand what you are saying. I've just never really looked at the resale value of fry as a reason to buy any cichlid, so I'm almost no help with that.
As for wild caught, I think you need to look at documentation. Can this person/seller prove that this fish came from the wild? Wild caught fish tend to be more skittish, that's all I really know.
I think joining a club is an excellent idea for anyone that is into cichlids. My local club is outstanding, and while I realize not everyone will have a club like mine, I think the ability to trade, learn, and just hang out with people that understand your hobby is priceless.
I'll ask Greg about the Hunters. He is enjoying the behavior of them much, and I don't think it will take much to get him to talk about them with me. He should let me know what his observations are, and I trust him with Victorians above all others. I'll hold back some of the Fulus when I donate fish, just let me know how many you'd like.
As for this forum, I really enjoy it. I don't talk much about it, because the Vics are my main interest, but I keep a lot of different things. I have Pearl Gouramis, Angels, tetras (Black skirt, green fire, gold), Danios, Rasboras, a Black Ghost Knife, a Baby Whale, kuhli loaches, and cories. I have 3 fairly heavily planted tanks. I just focus on my cichlids for the most part, and the Victorians are the ones that the least information is known, so I discuss those most.
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Post by jonv on Feb 5, 2009 21:58:30 GMT -5
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Post by barbara on Feb 5, 2009 22:12:07 GMT -5
Nice looking fish. The yellow on the fins of the Fulus...not really sure...maybe indicate females.
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Post by jonv on Feb 5, 2009 22:21:00 GMT -5
Thanks Barb. They aren't a true Vic either. I think these are from like Lake Albert or something like that? One of the minor lakes around Victoria. I can't wait to see if they spawn and soon, and then, in the summer, find some different color pattern males and start seeing what color variants I can come up with.
On the Fulu's, to me, better to have too many females then males I think. I really do want a small collection of yours as well, at the very least, to mix up the line, but I'd be happy to almost give an entire tank just to this species alone really if I had to. I love the looks of these guys too.
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Post by barbara on Feb 5, 2009 23:00:15 GMT -5
Victorian basin then, a lot of the fish come from satellite lakes around Victoria.
I have a 55 dedicated to them at this point. With there being so many in this area, I'm going to take advantage of the auction to diversify my line as well. Try to pick up a few new males, and retire my old male for a while.
Definitely better to be female heavy.
I saw a 1 inch Kenya Gold trying to entice a female into spawning. I'm always amazed at how small these guys get interested. I think I am female heavy there...right now I'd say I have 2 males, but it's hard to tell. The little male today was showing a little bit of color...just a hint of his future beauty.
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Post by brenda on Feb 7, 2009 11:43:55 GMT -5
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Post by jonv on Feb 7, 2009 12:36:55 GMT -5
That be the ones Brenda. The male doesn't have that much stripe in his face like some of those pics, and there are some different color patterns in the males, that I'm kind of hoping to mix and match and see what nice color patterns I can produce. These guys stay really small from what I've seen, but have that nice color pattern is very similar to like a Pundamilla Neyerie or something like that. He actually gets chased more by the Fulu then he does chasing, and that Hunter sticks his nose into things more and more now.
I've located another seller that has 3 hunters at 1 inch, and I think I'm going to get them in hopes at least 1 will turn out female. I'll put them in the 75 where there is no threat of anything happening to them. I'm going to build up the yellow bellies too and probably push to breed these guys pretty heavy. In my opinion, this would be a super fish to keep with John in that 20, given males tap out in the 3 inch range, and have even better colors then the Yellow Labs.
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Post by murdock6701 on Feb 7, 2009 12:59:43 GMT -5
hmmmmm, tempting me hey? 6 more months til spring for shipping....LOL!
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Post by jonv on Feb 7, 2009 14:26:57 GMT -5
Sure why not John? Take a look over that profile. Some might reach 4 inches but the guy breeding these, his males go maybe 3 inches. 3 or 4 inches, it'll still work in a 20 in terms of space. Keep a group of 3 or 4 females with him, and you'll get a heck of a show I tell you. These guys, they aren't as hard to sex either like the Yellows. If you see the bi color forming, that is a male. Females are very plain looking, with maybe just a slight hint of color. You can't miss it. It's pretty much a dimorphic species.
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