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Post by brenda on May 21, 2009 15:49:45 GMT -5
Those are neat fish and stay pretty small as well. They can be hard to find. Barbara can tell you more about them since she has some.
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Post by eve on May 21, 2009 15:52:42 GMT -5
yes, i know we talked about it last night
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Post by brenda on May 21, 2009 15:58:53 GMT -5
Figures...I am always the last to know.
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Post by eve on May 21, 2009 16:01:43 GMT -5
lol, no dear we where just both online last night, and we got to talk about them, so i hope i'm able to get into this tight circle you girls are in already
i think what you're doing is absolutely amazing
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Post by barbara on May 21, 2009 16:11:19 GMT -5
At some point, Eve is going to help distribute the Haplochromis sp. "Kenya Gold" in her area. This is a plan that we began to form last night. I'll donate some of my fry to her, for this new project.
OK, here is another topic to debate. I do not sell fish, period. I donate all of my at risk species to other breeders, other clubs and other causes. One thing I've been told is that things given freely often times hold no value to the person receiving. Should I be charging for my fish, after donating to the causes I feel are worthwhile? Or is it worth the risk to keep donating to people I don't know? This has been on my mind quite a bit, as I have been producing more and more fry.
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Post by brenda on May 21, 2009 16:15:42 GMT -5
Awww…Thanks Eve. I know you girls are usually up later then I am so I miss out on all the fun. I need to watch for you girls on the weekends when I am up later. It is a very special circle to be a part of and you would fit in awesomely.
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Post by brenda on May 21, 2009 16:17:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I figured you would, but I wasn’t going to come out and offer her your fry for you. lol
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Post by brenda on May 21, 2009 20:11:05 GMT -5
My take on this is that it depends on the individual. I know I still cherish a fish that I wanted whether I pay for it or not. I don't think you should start charging for your fish. A lot of times you can tell what a persons intentions are, in those cases you just plain don't give them fish free or otherwise. You of course are always going to get burned every once in a while by someone you thought had good intentions. When you find out what type of person they are...No more fish for them. That is my opinion on it.
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Post by barbara on May 21, 2009 23:10:26 GMT -5
At this point, I'm wimping out, and giving all my excess fry to Greg Steeves. While I could continue to do this, because he's someone I trust implicitly, and he has good instincts, I don't know if it is fair to him to expect him to distribute all of my fry. I'd rather not take them to Dave's, although that's always an option, I guess.
I know at some point, I'm going to have to move away from donating to clubs and various causes. It's difficult, as I tend to be rather trusting with other's motivations, and I always worry about their intentions. I guess if I give them fish, they then own the fish, and can do what they please with them. It's just hard, being in a group with such a mindset to do the right things, to have to be so cautious with outsiders.
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Post by eve on May 22, 2009 2:58:40 GMT -5
I think it's still important to use caution though especially since the aquarium hobby can be really cruel as well
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Post by barbara on May 22, 2009 10:21:11 GMT -5
I think it's still important to use caution though especially since the aquarium hobby can be really cruel as well Exactly. This is my fear. Some of the things I am working with breed like crazy, more than I can keep up with sometimes. Other things, the spawns are very limited, and those are the fish that concern me. For example, Haplochromis sp. "Kenya Gold." This fish, at this point, is only producing about 12-15 fry a month. There are a lot of people that have interest in this fish...enough that it will be several months before I can fill all of the requests I already have, much less do any donations. If one person that I chose had bad intentions...that would really hurt at this point. I'm not necessarily against people making money off of their hobby. I am against people taking advantage of kindness, and the varity of certain species in the hobby. If I give you fish, I expect, and state, that at least one spawn needs to be donated somewhere. I can't control anything beyond that. My hope is that people will do the right thing, but it is so hard to tell.
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Post by eve on May 22, 2009 12:51:26 GMT -5
I'm not necessarily against people making money off of their hobby. I am against people taking advantage of kindness, and the varity of certain species in the hobby. If I give you fish, I expect, and state, that at least one spawn needs to be donated somewhere. I can't control anything beyond that. My hope is that people will do the right thing, but it is so hard to tell. and i think that's a great idea
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Post by jonv on May 22, 2009 13:01:41 GMT -5
Barb,
Something that can be added into the distribution aspect is that a person wishing to go this route with the hobby is going to need additional tanks as well as time too. The growth rate of the fry is going to have to be factored species by species, as I'm seeing that the Madagascars have advantages of larger spawns by far, however, growth rates by comparison to Mbuna and even the Vics is significantly slower after the first month. In order to get to size to be safely shipped, since some species do grow slower then others, it's something I think someone should consider.
In the Madagascar case, where I've just been waiting for them to get big enough to put into your program, time seems to go slow. However, a group of the Protomelas Steveni's born a week later are already half an inch bigger then most and at a size I could trade or ship. Not that there is a hurry, but the ability to distribute in numbers can take much longer in some species then others, and if this is the goal I'd opt for a large colony and probably single species to maximize the ability to do that.
When talking about fry per month, like those Lipo. sp. Matumbai Hunters, apparently give a very low brood count, and why I am not sure. Keeping this species, while highly endangered and a very interesting looking fish, can be difficult to go with the distribution route if someone is lesser experienced or impatient. Some people I think while have good intentions to help out, really aren't experienced enough to just jump into Victorian keeping. What I really dislike about our hobby Barb, is how some people tail coat on others to fit in or be in the crowd.
I think there are a good number of cases where money does follow into species especially in Vics due to their status. Of course it's a case by case basis, but in general you probably would find more money in Vic keeping then say Mbuna or Shell Dwellers for example. Not a 100% case across the board, but enough cases to say there is a strong correlation to support the logic. I think it's a bonus to keep Vics while helping preserve and distribute, as well as get better looking fish then many common types, and still further, if you do like to sell for money from time to time, have a bit more bang for the buck. It's win all the way around is how I see it.
Btw, I'm ready to get some of your Xistochromis Phytophagus, in fact, if you'd like I have a nice 3 inch full grown adult female I could trade you for a few smaller younger females if you'd like even up. The rest of the colony is younger and smaller then her, so I can trade a breeding age/size adult female for a few younger females if this is something you'd consider.
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Post by barbara on May 22, 2009 13:20:06 GMT -5
Jon, I think you hit some good points. I do worry about where my fish are going, and what the intentions of the people I give them to are. I don't sell fish, and I don't want to sell fish. If I did charge, I think I'd donate the money to the LVP project, to pay for shipping supplies to Kenya. For me, this has never been about money. It's about doing what I can for the species in question.
I don't have any decent sized fulus. I have bunches of little ones, but not big enough to sex. I really don't have a need for a female of that size, but thanks. I could get you some small ones, but I would have no idea what sex they were.
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Post by jonv on May 22, 2009 15:05:28 GMT -5
I've picked up some additional rocks, I just have to move out that Venustus and then I think more Fulu can be safely added. A couple of my 12 I found dead, and it's either just being weak or I think the Venustus stalked them to death maybe. Either way I want to move him out. With the new rocks, about 50% of the substrate will be very rocky and caved up. I have to watch the weight distribution, this is on a second floor and I do see the tank starting to creep to the left. After 3 years now I think the stand might be sinking a bit more on the left side, into the wood then on the right, however, next month, we going to do a big clean up in the tank and drain it out, so I can check the foundation and alter it as needed.
Vin is going to cut me a huge deal on about 100lbs of Holey Rock and I'm going to trim the gravel down as well to make cleaning easier. I've been slowly working this remake project along Barb, but basically once I get that Venustus gone, any new Fulu shouldn't be under any danger, so please, when you're ready, I'd like to add some soon. I have one young male just starting to color up now and a second sub dom. This is going to be a wonderful colony if I can add in some from you.
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Post by barbara on May 23, 2009 16:14:19 GMT -5
I'm really glad I brought up the topic of how to distribute fish, because just yesterday I had some news.
I had been over run with Xystichromis phytophagus a while back. I gave a friend of mine 1 male and 3 females, so he could start his own colony. One of the females was holding at the time, and he's growing those fry out himself.
I had an offer for him, of an extra male fish that I have. In the conversation it rambled around to the fulus. He has had success with his, and has donated some to the local club, for someone else to start a colony. This is what I want...this is what my goals are. That's one colony more out there, producing fry, and helping the species. By offering those fry, he has just validated what my goals are, and helped be that link in the chain that is needed to get these fish into the hobby.
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Post by brenda on May 23, 2009 18:22:01 GMT -5
That is great Barbara!!!! I know it really makes you feel good to get news like that.
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Post by barbara on May 24, 2009 11:02:13 GMT -5
One other bit I want to share. I had a request about a month ago for some Xystichromis phytophagus. I warned the guy that all I had was small fish, but he was fine with that. I set him up, and had them shipped. Last night, I received word that he had registered those fish with the ACA CARES program. Does my heart good to know that someone does care enough to take those steps. I guess if I do send some out, and someone chooses to sell them, at least I know some people will do the right thing.
I'm going to have to stop donating Fulus for a little while. I need to grow out a colony for myself. I've been holding off, and donating my largest to various causes, but I'll have such a limited number if I don't start breeding again. It's been really nice to hand out those fish, and I have a few more obligations to fill, but I'm really pleased. If I can get some other species going as well as those have produced, that will be wonderful.
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Post by brenda on May 24, 2009 14:15:19 GMT -5
That is great Barbara....Was that the guy in Denver?
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Post by barbara on May 24, 2009 14:43:09 GMT -5
Yes, that was the guy in Denver. Isn't that cool?
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