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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 29, 2009 22:17:51 GMT -5
my male yellow has been extremely aggressive towards his 2 ladies lately so per Jonv's advice I gave him a time out and moved him to another tank where he is not the boss - problem is, now the 2 females won't come out of hiding - he is 4: long - one of the females id 3-1/2" long and the other is about 2-1/2" long - I cannot greate a place where the girls can go that he can't w/ the exception of the smaller female - have only had cichlids for a few months - other than this episode, they have been a delight and very curious and friendly - I think he is ready to breed and they are not mature enough - any input please?
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Post by brenda on Jan 29, 2009 22:30:31 GMT -5
Well John, maybe you could put some dither fish in with the girls if you want them to come out. They "probably" would not bother the dithers. I would think they are big enough to breed at those sizes. How aggressive is he...Is he brutally aggressive or does he just seem really aggressive because you are used to "nice" fish? The chasing is totally normal and I don't think there is really any way to stop that. Target fish may help so he leaves the girls alone a little more. Do you have a current pic of how you have your tank set up? We could take a look at that and maybe give some decor suggestions that "may" help.
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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 29, 2009 22:37:55 GMT -5
plenty of dither fish - 3 zebra danios, 3 von rio orange tetras a couple of neons - the larger female was deifinitely stressing - tons of caves and driftwood hidey spots and artificial plants but like I said the male can go anywhere the larger female can so I can't greate a cave just for her that he can't get into
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Post by kagome on Jan 30, 2009 0:28:08 GMT -5
My husband once used a bubble wand that went from the front of the tank to the back of the tank to separate aggressive fish. Since the fish would not swim through the bubbles it basically made a wall down the middle of the tank. I can't remember what kind of fish they were, sorry, and he's asleep right now so I can't ask him. I have no idea if that would be practical or desirable, just an idea.
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Post by eve on Jan 30, 2009 3:43:51 GMT -5
jon mentioned it to me last night
and i think it's good to divide them there is a high possibility that you have in fact 2 males
i would watch the bigger assumed female, how she/he is around the smaller female with the male gone
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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 30, 2009 8:15:58 GMT -5
I'm 99.9% positive they're both females - no black at all on dorsal fin - silver stripe - no egg spots on anal fin - this morning the females are making themselves more visible.....and seem more active when I fed them - male id hanging on the lower-to-mid substrate in the other tank - his brilliance is awesome
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Post by jonv on Jan 30, 2009 8:27:44 GMT -5
You don't usually see a female attain the same size as a male, but given this will be almost 48 hours in the absence of the one we know for sure is male, this has to confirm a female. Just an unusual case of a large female at that. I have heard a very small amount of people talk about a "pecking" order among females too, similar to how you have with males, the dominant and submissives. If there is any truth to that aspect, you'd more then likely see this in smaller set ups such as a 20, 25 even a 30 gallon tank, single species only. At that size you have posted John, she's the same size as her mom, so I'm saying she's clearly at sexual maturity, it's just a matter of conditioning now.
The addition of one more female would probably be ideal and very sorry you lost the one out of the group I sent. Had she made it, this probably would keep that male busy putting attention over three vs two and maybe you'll see the females hide slightly less this way. Third target creates a little chaos in the male as to, who am I going to go after now...In my case also with a larger area, I've been getting away over 2 years now keeping that 1 female with 2 males, the opposite of what you'd ideally want. The only reason this has worked out thus far is the sheer size of the footrprint. If this were a 20 like your's, I'm sure that either one of the two males would have beaten up the other, and probably the female as well. The mom of your fish, I am happy to say, is one of the finest yellow's I've ever had, a pure solid yellow body on her, just a few hints of white dots when she's carrying but other then that, solid yellow.
Someone had mentioned to me also, that when it comes to genetic material in fish, about 80% of that comes from the mom too. Not sure the validity on it, but assuming this is true, you should get a rather high number of offspring showing little to no bars in the body if you breed your females.
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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 30, 2009 9:46:15 GMT -5
He walks before 10! LOL! good morning John! thanks - am planning on buying a 3rd female to replace the one that arrived dead - I think a different bloodline, while not guaranteed as good as yours, will make a difference as well - going to keep them all in the long 20 - hoping to finish the setup this weekend - thanks - John
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Post by eve on Jan 30, 2009 13:00:30 GMT -5
john, if you do buy a new female, make sure you introduce her before you put the male back into it
africans are kinda weird in some way, they are very territorial, and hardly accept any new companions once they have reached adult hood
make sure you switch up every single decoration you have in that tank, and introduce them when lights are out
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 30, 2009 15:32:47 GMT -5
John, is it possible for you to buy an tank divider and seperate the male from the females that way? They're sold just about everywhere. And if there's no enough circulation aeration on one side where you put the divider (which has happened with me), put in an extra aerator on the side with less circulations.
Hope that helps!
Renee
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Post by jonv on Jan 30, 2009 19:49:57 GMT -5
If you want to make sure you can get a good look John, take everything out of the tank like you'd do a water change, and look then when they have no where they could hide. This might also help them realize the male is out. Take everything out, wait about 10-15 minutes to let them calm down, and then take a peek at the bigger one. If after 2 days you still see no change, it's a female.
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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 30, 2009 20:34:56 GMT -5
it's a female unless males have no egg spots....the smaller one comes out but the other just hides - what great fun......
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Post by barbara on Jan 30, 2009 20:57:58 GMT -5
I find when adding new fish, I try to catch some of the other fish too, and release them all at the same time. This confuses things even more.
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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 30, 2009 21:48:44 GMT -5
Barbara, thanks for the tip - I thrive on confusion! honestly!
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Post by bikeguy33 on Jan 30, 2009 22:25:36 GMT -5
i agree with renee`s advice. it is better to seperate the male in the same tank when possible. this way the scents are there and the visuals are too....just not the aggression...
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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 30, 2009 23:07:13 GMT -5
am enlarging the footprint on their new home to a 30" long shallow 20 gallon - will be easier to divide - between a bubble wall and driftwood and rocks or even a piece of plexiglass, it should work....
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Post by brenda on Jan 30, 2009 23:47:09 GMT -5
I think the added length will make a big difference.(hopefully) Keep us updated on what is happening. Goodluck John!!!
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Post by jonv on Jan 30, 2009 23:50:05 GMT -5
i agree with renee`s advice. it is better to seperate the male in the same tank when possible. this way the scents are there and the visuals are too....just not the aggression... I disagree here with you Bill, which is a VERY rare thing at that. What John is trying to accomplish, which I'm pretty sure we did, was determine the gender of the larger of the 2 I sent him thinking they were females. It's rather unusual from what I've seen to have a female reach the same sizes as adults early on. Later in their life yes, but these fish are just under a year old. With the African aspect, a 20 gallon footprint here, if the male, even seperated in the tank is still there, should the large one suspected of being a female, really had turned out to be a submissive male, it would not reveal any color shift in the body. That's why in this case, it would not be a very good choice to just use isolation in the tank. He really needs to come out all together. If there is a submissive male and females of same species left, submissive males should front a breeding dress within a day or 2. Not to be mean, but advice outside of that scope is a case where lack of African cichild experience is showing. I'd think either way now, John has determined that he does have a pair of females though now, just one is an unusually large female for her age is all. No I wasn't giving them steriods either LOL. Barb, nice suggestion there. I think Eve sort of hinted at that as well, or at least, doing a reintroduction as a whole. In a 20 gallon stock setting, this shouldn't be a tremendous amount of work either. In a larger tank, this could take a good chunk of time though.
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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 31, 2009 20:08:58 GMT -5
I feel like a complete failure! the females will not come out of hiding! I have removed an item or 2 of decor just so they can see the male is not around and it doesn't seem to matter - am ready to bare tank it just so I can see them!
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Post by brenda on Jan 31, 2009 20:39:41 GMT -5
When are you going to move them to the 20 long? Hopefully as I said before that will help. I understand wanting to see your fish...I wonder if sometimes it is a female thing. I notice with some of mine I don't see the females anywhere near as often as the males and when I do see the females it is usually with a male close behind.
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