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Post by parker002 on Nov 14, 2010 12:28:41 GMT -5
I originally came here to ask a question but a quick search revealed what I wanted to know - that Carl and others think this is a quality food. Rather than ask a question for which I already have an answer, I thought I'd just mention this for anybody that might benefit. My mother-in-law gets catalogs from Drs Foster and Smith and I frequently page through it to see "what's out there" and broaden my horizons. I noticed that they were selling specialized foods for livebearers that was formulated more towards the herbivorous side, containing vegetable ingredients such as spirulina. I already feed Hikari Spirulina Brine Shrimp, which my fish absolutely love but it's a treat moreso than a staple diet. So when I was at Petsmart getting some cat food I asked the lady and she said that corporate has mandated they feed their livebearers Omega One brand Veggie Rounds. So I took a look at it and compared it to some of the foods in the catalog, like Tetra Veggie Crisps. The top 5 ingredients in the Omega One food were whole kelp, spirulina, whole salmon, black cod, and whole herring. Wheat flour was the 7th ingredient listed and in fact, the ONLY two "filler" ingredients in the food were wheat flour and wheat gluten. Outside of the 7 ingredients I just mentioned, the rest of the ingredients were either additional seafood ingredients (ie. krill), added vitamins, or coloring. The Tetra food, by comparison, has the following top ten ingredients: Fish Meal, Dried Yeast, Cornstarch, Shrimp Meal, Wheat Gluten, Ground Brown Rice, Potato Protein, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Fish Oil, and Algae Meal. It also contains MILK (?!?!?!) and 3 ingredients I recognize as preservatives. There's a half dozen artifical colorings and some things that I have no idea what they are for, like Cobalt Nitrate Hexahydrate. What was somewhat disheartening, after digging deeper, was that the ingredient lists some of my favorite food brands (like the Hikari micro pellets I FINALLY found for my neon/glo-lite Tetras) looked alot closer to the Tetra food than the Omega One. The micro pellets, for example, contain not only wheat fillers but corn as well. All of that said, though, I have to tip my hat to Petsmart if what the sales associate told me is true. The big box stores sometimes get the reputation of being "puppy mills" when it comes to fish, and sometimes rightfully so. But it sure looks like to me that they're feeding their fish one of the better foods available instead of just using the cheap stuff.
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Post by Carl on Nov 14, 2010 15:52:38 GMT -5
While I still feel Hikari is a much better brand than Tetra (based in part on feeding trials where Tetra did not do well when compared to many brands), Hikari has also done a good job of marketing, thus convincing many that Hikari is the best of the best when often they are not. As for fillers, some are needed (such as roughage), and what ingredients lists often do not show is the quality of the source. Hikari for instance uses regular committed sources, while Tetra goes for the lowest bidder at the time. Finally, Hikari also does a better job than many foods at upping their food quality with "minor" ingredients. I do agree that Omega One is "one of the best brands", my only complaint is they use very much the same ingredients (albeit quality) for the entire line, this is particularly noticeable with the Veggie Flakes where Spirluina & other vegetable content is not as good as products such as the superior HBH Veggie Flake or Spirulina 20 Veggie diets (unless this has changed sine the last time I checked). Also (& not to seem bitter), Omega was originally marketed via specialty stores only that in turn spent a great deal of effort in promoting their product. After achieving much public attention of their product via these specialty stores effort, Omega Fish foods ceased sales to these store and is now primarily a mass market fish food brand (it is even found on Amazon, which has a terrible reputation of selling cr## aquarium products with no product knowledge to back them up). This of course does not make Omega a poor product, as I have used and tested it extensively (and still recommend it in my fish nutrition article), I just have some ethical issues with the company and I am attempting to explain why PetsMart promotes this product. Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 14, 2010 16:37:12 GMT -5
Yeah, I didn't mean to make it sound like Hikari was "as bad" as Tetra.
I just noticed that their ingredient lists looked more like Tetra than it did Omega One.
I also realize that this varies by individual product as much as it does brand in alot of cases. A good example is Aqueon, who makes flakes WITH artificial color enhancers as well as flakes without.
FYI, I'm not using Veggie Flakes, I'm using Veggie Rounds, which are similar to the sinking wafers you would feed to pleco only thinner and smaller. Unfortunately, I don't have access to HBH or Spirulina 20 here. We only have 3 LFS. 2 of them sell basically all the same foods as the Petsmarts/Petcos. The other LFS makes and packages his own food and since I don't know anything about it really, I haven't tried it.
Finally, there's no need to apologize for sounding bitter. That IS pretty poor on their part. They used the grass roots guys to do the heavy lifting and then turned around and cashed in with a bigger distribution channel. It's especially bad if they just used the specialty stores to avoid having to shell out alot of money for marketing.
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Post by Carl on Nov 14, 2010 19:15:34 GMT -5
Good, cause I was not intending to come off as rude in your informative post, I simply felt these points were worth making; good & bad
Carl
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Post by babygeige on Nov 17, 2010 20:34:07 GMT -5
I've used Omega One Veggie Rounds before too! They definitely have some of the better ingredients out there. Right now I'm using HBH Algae Grazers. After I got the pleco, I decided that the little can of Veggie Rounds I had before wasn't going to last long. The Algae Grazers come in a nice resealable bag. The beginning of their ingredients list is Spirulina Algae, dehydrated alfalfa mean, pea power, soy flower... and on and on. There are a lot of vegetable powders in it, not sure if that's good or bad. I believe I bought this at Petsmart. My cories and pleco enjoy them and they seem to be doing ok... You know what else I bought on a whim at Petsmart? Dried seaweed. It comes in sheets, and I just tear off a VERY small piece and try to weigh it down with an anchor. I pretty much just use it for my shrimp tank. One small piece breaks up into lots of bits of seaweed! I really need to get a new veggie clip, then I can try it in other tanks. The ingredient list on that package just says "Dried Nori Sheets." It has lots of protein... 37% Anyone else ever use this stuff?
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Post by Carl on Nov 18, 2010 20:43:09 GMT -5
You know what else I bought on a whim at Petsmart? Dried seaweed. It comes in sheets, and I just tear off a VERY small piece and try to weigh it down with an anchor. I pretty much just use it for my shrimp tank. One small piece breaks up into lots of bits of seaweed! I really need to get a new veggie clip, then I can try it in other tanks. The ingredient list on that package just says "Dried Nori Sheets." It has lots of protein... 37% Anyone else ever use this stuff? Yes, I have (under the Ocean Nutrition label), this is great stuff too. Yellow & Naso Tangs in marine tanks love this stuff and thrive. Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 19, 2010 10:10:41 GMT -5
The beginning of their ingredients list is Spirulina Algae, dehydrated alfalfa mean, pea power, soy flower... and on and on. There are a lot of vegetable powders in it, not sure if that's good or bad. I'm definitely not a fish food expert but have done a lot of research around food ingredients, whether it's for my fish, my dog, or ME. Back during the "great dog food scare" (my brother lost his dog due to renal failure) I started watching closely - I was shocked to see so many ingredients that have no place in a dog's diet, like eggs, milk, and grain gluten. In my opinion, they're adding those things to increase the protein content in the cheapest way possible. Gluten has long been used in Asia as a meat substitute, especially in Japan. Much like they have soybean tofu, they also have gluten-based foods that have similar texture. That being said, you wouldn't feed tofu to your dog (or fish) would you? Tofu is supposed to be consumed by people - we're omnivores. Vegetable protein extracts (or worse, synthetic vegetable proteins) aren't metabolized the same way by strictly carnivorous animals like dogs. In my opinion, I would watch out for protein "fillers" which on your list above would be soy. A veggie food should contain VEGGIES. When they're adding wheat gluten, soy, or other proteins derived from grains, they're NOT adding as much REAL protein that fish need which would be derived from obvious sources, such as...I don't know...FISH? However, the biggest problem with soy and gluten proteins isn't the above. Glutens are also the basic source of glutamate, what the Japanese call "umami". The 4 basic tastes are salty, sweet, sour, and bitter. The 5th taste, umami, is what we call savory - the flavor produced by proteins and amino acids found primarily in meat. In several Asian cultures, especially where Buddhism was prevalent, there was a desire to experience umami without eating meat so foods using soy and gluten proteins became very popular. Of course, in the modern world it seems making things naturally is either too time-consuming, too expensive, or both. Some scientist somewhere found a way to synthesize umami by extracting the amino acids and then processing them into a salt. It's being used anywhere and everywhere we'll allow it, both in our food and our pets. The effects of MSG have been studied extensively and go well beyond the common stuff you've heard about, like migraine headaches for example. I'm sure all of us have heard people say that they're hungry again not 2 hours after eating at the all-you can eat buffet. The reason for that is because MSG effects insulin response, which causes your blood sugar to drop. That makes you hungry again despite the fact that you just ate. Rather than provide an incomplete list from my own memory, I actually Googled this so you can see. This came from the book “Excitotoxins: The Taste That Kills” by Russell Blaylock. M.D. The following additives always contain MSG: Glutamate Glutamic acid Yeast extract Monosodium glutamate Autolyzed yeast Gelatin Monopotassium glutamate Sodium caseinate Textured protein Calcium caseinate Hydrolyzed protein (any protein that is hydrolyzed)
I have also learned to watch for the following as they either can contain MSG or are related to MSG - malt flavorings or extracts, "natural" meat flavorings, soy sauce or soy proteins, milk-derived proteins such as whey, wheat proteins, and protein or enzyme "isolates". There are vegetables that are just naturally high in protein and thus "umami" which you'll find in Japanese food and also in fish food. One of them is nori - how ironic! You know what else I bought on a whim at Petsmart? Dried seaweed. It comes in sheets, and I just tear off a VERY small piece and try to weigh it down with an anchor. I pretty much just use it for my shrimp tank. One small piece breaks up into lots of bits of seaweed! I really need to get a new veggie clip, then I can try it in other tanks. The ingredient list on that package just says "Dried Nori Sheets." It has lots of protein... 37% Anyone else ever use this stuff? I have a package of it. My ghost shrimp won't eat it. It just sits there in a gelatinous sludge until I vacuum it out.
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Post by Carl on Nov 19, 2010 16:07:40 GMT -5
Very Informative Parker! I too attended many Pet Food seminars (mostly for Dog and Cat Food when I was more active tin this aspect of the pet industry),; it is amazing what can and does go into many pet foods and that you can produce the "Guaranteed Analysis" of proteins, ash, etc with some pretty poor ingredients (such as old leather shoes in one example I recall). The only part of your excellent lesson I do not quite follow is about "nori". Were you stating this is the same as MSG? The reason I am unclear is that there are many excellent vegetable, non meat sources of usable proteins (amino acids) such as Spirulina. Nori is also highly digestible and I have seen Yellow Tangs in particular fatten up and get back lost color from poor diets (which often sadly included feeding lettuce) from a diet that included copious amounts of nori (at least 50% of the diet) Of coarse it depends upon the fish or other animal you are feeding as you would not expect your cat to thrive on alfalfa while your horse would not do very well even on the best brand cat food available. Carl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Nov 19, 2010 19:50:36 GMT -5
very informative guys....what a cool read...
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Post by parker002 on Nov 20, 2010 14:08:24 GMT -5
The only part of your excellent lesson I do not quite follow is about "nori". Were you stating this is the same as MSG? The reason I am unclear is that there are many excellent vegetable, non meat sources of usable proteins (amino acids) such as Spirulina. Nori is also highly digestible and I have seen Yellow Tangs in particular fatten up and get back lost color from poor diets (which often sadly included feeding lettuce) from a diet that included copious amounts of nori (at least 50% of the diet) Of coarse it depends upon the fish or other animal you are feeding as you would not expect your cat to thrive on alfalfa while your horse would not do very well even on the best brand cat food available. Carl Sorry if that was misleading. I was attempting to say that the largest variety of natural, savory flavors come from animal-derived proteins/amino acids. However, it's not necessary to use artificial flavorings like MSG to experience umami without meat. Many vegetables contain glutamates, like tomatoes and potatoes (actually, most MSG production today starts with the fermentation of beets). Mushrooms are also naturally savory. However, some vegetables are extremely high in natural umami. It's no coincidence that nori seaweed is so prevalent in Japanese cuisine. In terms of amino acids/proteins, nori is one of the most "savory" plants in the world. Sorry I made it confusing before. I should have just said "nori is one of the best fish food ingredients I can think of." By the way, another big concept in umami is the "layering" of flavors because some savory flavors are subtle and certain proteins combined with others create more interesting combinations. A good example would be slapping a slice of cheese on a hamburger. The hamburger by itself is savory. So is the cheese. However, putting them together produces a more complex flavor that the two individually can't provide. It's the reason why a sushi roll has fish in the middle and nori on the outside. My fish get to experience this a few times a week when I feed them Hikari Spirulina Brine Shrimp.
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Post by Carl on Nov 20, 2010 17:25:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the Clarity parker. That makes sense! BTW, this is another thread you started (as was the Bamboo Shrimp thread, which has already received good feedback) that would make a good blog post due to great educational content. If you do not mind I would like to add this to the Everything Aquatic Blog sometime this week. Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 20, 2010 19:40:52 GMT -5
Very informative post Parker! I too have learned about "filler ingredients" that really shoudln't be in fish fooda. This is almost soley from reading Carl's articles as well. I always buy my fish the best foods I can even if that means they cost more than cheap stuff like Tetra foods. Renee
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Post by parker002 on Nov 21, 2010 14:47:29 GMT -5
My biggest issue is FINDING quality fish foods. I'm very limited in my choices given where I live.
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 22, 2010 18:57:39 GMT -5
I actually find this surprising. Most petstores, (Petsmart included) do carry some good quality fish foods. Some are junk but there are several good ones. Of course smaller petstores or places like Walmart or Meijer probably wouldn't carry quality fish foods.
If you ever have any trouble finding good foods, I know Carl sells several extremely healthy ones. Hope that helps!
Renee
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Post by parker002 on Nov 23, 2010 13:18:09 GMT -5
Petsmart and Petco both carry quality foods. The issue is that you have to scan through 40 different kinds of the "not so good" stuff to find them.
However, outside of the chains, I really don't have ANY choices, so I'm limited to what they sell.
I would buy from Carl but don't usually plan well enough ahead that paying the shipping makes sense.
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Post by Carl on Nov 27, 2010 18:51:22 GMT -5
I added this thread to a blog post on the Everything Aquatic Home Page: Omega, Tetra, Hikari, HBH and other Fish FoodsI am also curious as to the Aqueon foods you found with artificial color enhancers, as this is Aqueon's claim to only use natural ingredient such as "Natural Astaxanthin" & "Marigold Powder" found in their Cichlid Sticks and Tropical fish food flakes. Of coarse what a fish food manufacturer claims and what in fact is the reality of their product may be a gray area, however I personally have not seen this with Aqeuon while I have with Omega (as an example, Omega's Veggie flake is not really a true Veggie Flake). Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 28, 2010 2:11:00 GMT -5
The flake food that came with my fish tank was an Aqueon "starter" food. It was basically the same ingredients as the Tetra (or maybe it was Top Fin) flake that came with my kids' betta tank. I never used it, opting instead for the stuff with Marigold powder. It turned my filter media bright red! I haven't used it since.
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Post by Carl on Nov 28, 2010 11:21:26 GMT -5
The flake food that came with my fish tank was an Aqueon "starter" food. It was basically the same ingredients as the Tetra (or maybe it was Top Fin) flake that came with my kids' betta tank. I never used it, opting instead for the stuff with Marigold powder. It turned my filter media bright red! I haven't used it since. I think this was the Top Fin that did this, as Marigold Powder is an ingredient in Aqueon Tropical Fish Food. Top Fin and Aqueon are interesting comparisons in companies: Both are what I would call "Shadow" companies as both use other companies product licenses to produce lower cost versions of products (the Aqueon HOB filter is licensed from Whisper). The big difference is Aqueon generally seeks out better products (or fish food formulas) and then sells through better retailers while Top Fin goes for the lowest common denominator and sales to places like Walmart Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 28, 2010 12:55:25 GMT -5
I believe Top Fin is now the "official" store brand of Petsmart. You can't buy Top Fin at Walmart anymore.
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Post by Carl on Nov 28, 2010 18:34:34 GMT -5
I believe Top Fin is now the "official" store brand of Petsmart. You can't buy Top Fin at Walmart anymore. I had not heard this Bad news for PetsMart IMO Carl
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