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Post by parker002 on May 7, 2012 13:05:12 GMT -5
If anything, the Wonder Shells should HELP the shrimp, not hurt them.
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 8, 2012 13:13:07 GMT -5
Not sure how I missed this!!! sorry!!! I love wonder shells, but get it out of the tank with the shrimp. I did this to mine!!! They get a drunk look then die...not sure what it is about the wonder shell and shrimp. Maybe too much calcium? Mine recovered but it took them about a week to do so. I posted in another thread about my shrimp. I had moved the shrimp into their own 10g. Filter, plants, even the tank itsself was cycled..the only thing I added that was new was Black Florite because I couldn't find Eco Complete (I like the look of EC). Tank went thru New Tank Syndrome...(I added a large wondershell to the tank...thinking it would last a LONG time in a 10g.......)anyway, I lost one of the 3 Adult CRS. It was within a week of adding the WS that this started (like 3 days). I suggest you pull your RCS and put them in a species only tank (unless they already are) and don't add to it. As far as the ammonia, using prime, you will always get a false reading on ammonia. I haven't fully read the thread, so this may have been solved by now.....sorry I am so late!!!
Edit: Finished reading the thread. Glad your shrimp are doing better. I still suggest not using WS. I don't fert my shrimp tank either...small weekly water changes are the best. Shrimp are sensitive and MUST have good quality water. I have now gotten more RCS and I am trying again. I didn't have any issues with the shrimp until my Endler's decided to snack on them, then with the move to a species only tank/WS issue. Wondershells go into all my other tanks and I keep medicated ones on hand! (Thank you Carl!!!)
Lori
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Post by Carl on May 8, 2012 15:24:15 GMT -5
Lori,
While I have not kept Wonder Shells with Royal Cherry Shrimp (or CRS), I have kept WS with other shrimps.
My thought is that you used a large Wonder Shell in a 10 gallon aquarium which WILL change the positive electron charge very rapidly.
My use of Wonder Shells with shrimp, Bettas, Discus, etc. is to use a half dose, which for a 10 gallon aquarium would be 1-2 small Wonder shells or a medium wonder shell cut in half (which is easy to do with a hammer). Even then I generally start out with a 1/4 dose if not used prior too.
Please do not take this either as defensive or as an attack, rather a debate, as what you pointed out is excellent information that should be included in my information articles too.
However I want to be clear as to the exact or likely cause.
I will note that I saw this with a few Bettas where a Wonder Shell was "over dosed" and the Betta showed stress, but when removed the betta got better.
However these Bettas were struggling with health issues prior to the WS introduction. So I gave these Bettas another try, but used only 1/4 the WS and over time increased the WS to 1/2.
In the end the Bettas had more healthy appetites and showed much better disease resistance.
This is my guess as to what you also observed with the RCS
Carl
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Post by Carl on May 8, 2012 18:01:59 GMT -5
One more thought as an analogy. When adding fish/invertebrates to a tank that is a say a pH of 7.5, yet the new/future inhabitants in "the bag" are in water of 6.5, the introduction must be very slow, often a few hours for very sensitive fish/inverts. This holds true for mineral ions (electrolytes); changing the Redox from say 350mV to -100 mV suddenly can be very difficult on certain fish/inverts. As well the healthy Freshwater Redox of +125 to -200 mV may need to be on the low side for certain "creatures" such as CRS, but that does not mean keeping a a high oxidizing environment of 350+ mV is healthy for the long term survival of CRS Carl |
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Post by parker002 on May 9, 2012 6:51:32 GMT -5
I just put a medium WS in the 14G tank a couple of days ago. Should I remove it? I really have no idea if my shrimp are OK because they're hiding deep in the jungle...
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Post by Carl on May 9, 2012 8:57:22 GMT -5
Have you been using these all along?
If so, not as likely a problem since there would not be the sudden change in mineral cations.
That said, my recommendation would be a 1/2 medium Wonder Shell for this tank.
Carl
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Post by parker002 on May 9, 2012 10:07:42 GMT -5
I have been using them all along. I've been breaking up the large ones and using them in this tank for over a year. Should I remove the shell that's in there and split it up?
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Post by Carl on May 9, 2012 10:50:04 GMT -5
This makes my point; It is not the mineral cations, calcium that is the problem; it is the sudden introduction of these mineral ions that is the problem. Similar to a sudden pH change. This said, I have found best results aquariums geared toward a "softer" environment to use a half block, so yes I would split it. Many though have kept these in quite hard water, so leaving well enough alone likely would not be an issue either. see: www.planetinverts.com/Red%20Cherry%20Shrimp.htmlCarl |
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Post by Carl on May 9, 2012 11:57:09 GMT -5
I added more clarity to the Aquarium Chemistry article for a better understanding of this subject. Here is the section I added information too, with the underline the new sentence: Sudden changes in these electrolytes (as with pH) can be stressful/detrimental as well, this includes rapid positive changes. For this reason any aquarium that is depleted of positive mineral ions in particular, should have these introduced slowly.
This is especially the case with many Labyrinth fish (such as Bettas), and Crystal Red Shrimp even though both benefit greatly from these mineral cations.
A fish or invertebrate stressed by the introduction of necessary positive ions is not evidence that these cations should avoided, rather proof of an unhealthy mineral cation depleted environment (as per scientific reasoning).
To avoid this stress, I would suggest a 1/4 to 1/2 dose of Replenish, Wonder Shells, etc. if kept in a previously ion depleted environment.This is from the Electrolytes Section for those desiring to read this more in context, although IMO opinion understanding the article in full, including Redox is essential to fully understanding why mineral cations are essential, yet added to a depleted environment can cause the previously described stress Carl |
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Post by parker002 on May 9, 2012 12:32:32 GMT -5
I saw 3 of them a few minutes ago and they're all working diligently on algae.
I'm going to leave everything alone.
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 15, 2012 7:51:11 GMT -5
lots of excuses as to why I haven't replied...latest one is my replacement phone (keeps wanting me to buy the proboard app!) won't let me reply. (I emailed Carl).
I am the one at fault with my shrimp..I admit that. I put a wonder shell meant for a 55g tank into a 10g tank. I was more referring to the wonder shell as being careful not to overdose as I did.
I want to publicly apologize to Carl...I didn't mean it to have been a negative posting about wondershell, just how easy it is to overdose these sensitive little guys. I love the wondershell! I just didn't think (can I blame it on being blonde? LOL).
I am the one that did every thing wrong...with the symptoms of the shrimp was exactly what I was experiencing with mine.
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Post by parker002 on May 15, 2012 8:54:06 GMT -5
Um, there's zero need to apologize IMO. You're trying to provide advice based on your own experience and in this case, you were absolutely right to do so. If he is accidentally overdosing his shrimp, as you suggest, he needs to know that. It also led to a great discussion in which Carl posted a lot of very good info.  |
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Post by Carl on May 15, 2012 9:57:36 GMT -5
As parker noted: I agree, no need. This turned out to be a good discussion that also brought out key points of making ANY change to an aquarium environment, even if in the end it is positive. Over the years I have seen many customers perform large water changes with resulting in stress or even death of inhabitants. This did not mean the water change was "bad" or even a large water change is "bad", rather it was the sudden wide change in water parameters. Regards; Carl |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 15, 2012 15:30:13 GMT -5
I just didn't want people thinking I was attacking anything  (Carl, you know how I am  ). I got new RCS 2 weeks ago and they have already dropped fry and others are berried. Guess my issues are on the mend. Small piece of WS will be added soon Lori |
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Post by tamara on Jan 6, 2013 23:36:01 GMT -5
FYI We bought 7 cherry shrimp and 2 diamond shrimp and have them in an 8 gallon tank. The poor little buggers have been through a lot with us but at least some have been hanging in there! Lately we've counted 4 RCS and 1 diamond, and it's likely more may be hiding. We've never been able to find them all, even right after we first put them in the tank.
Anyway, we recently added a whole medium wonder shell to our 8 gallon tank with the shrimp and they perked right up! Overnight we noticed they are more active and visible compared to how they were previously. (We also had removed some driftwood that was causing the PH to go way low, but it took a couple more days for that to come back up.)
After we are done making our beginner mistakes with them, we intend to buy a bunch more from a local guy for $1 each to be sure we have enough and plenty males/females. I found 2 people on Craigslist offering cheap RCS. Since they are apparently so easy to breed I wouldn't be surprised if cheap local sources could be found in many places.
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Post by tamara on Jan 7, 2013 11:54:28 GMT -5
To clarify, I am not suggesting it's a good idea to do what we did and add a whole medium wondershell all at once to an 8 gallon cherry shrimp tank. It's probably smarter to add a little at a time at first as Carl recommends.
It's just that, based on our experience, I think we don't need to be afraid of wondershells for shrimp, either.
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Or please consider a donation, even just $5 helps. If even 25% of users of this information donated just $5, it would be more income than one year of sales (currently less than 1/1000 of a % donate)
(Carl, you know how I am 
).
